On 09 Dec 2011, at 21:06, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/9/2011 11:48 AM, Pzomby wrote:

On Dec 8, 12:20 pm, meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net>  wrote:
On 12/8/2011 10:18 AM, Pzomby wrote:


On Dec 7, 10:31 am, meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net>    wrote:
On 12/7/2011 8:14 AM, benjayk wrote:
Most materialist just say: Well, the natural laws are just there, without any particular reason or meaning behind them, we have to take them for granted. But this is almost as unconvincing as saying "A creator God is just there, we have to take him for granted". It makes no sense (it would be a totally absurd universe), and there also is no evidence that natural laws are primary (we don't find laws to describe the Big Bang and very plausibly,
there are none because it is a mathematical singularity).
You are attributing a naive concept of physical laws to "we". Physical laws are models we make up to explain and predict the world. That's why they change when we get new information. Mathematical singularities are in the mathematics. Nobody supposes they are
in the world.
Brent
Brent
You state: Physical laws are models we make up to explain and predict
the world.  Are properties of mathematics then dual, being both
representational (models) and encoded (rules) as instantiated brain
functions?
Mathematics is a subset of language in which propositions are related by rules of inference that preserve "truth". We can use it to talk about all kinds of things, both real and fictional. We try to create mathematical models where possible because then we have the rules of inference to make predictions that are precise. Where our models are not mathematical, e.g. in politics or psychology, it's never clear exactly what the model
predicts.

I think the rules of inference are encoded in our brains. See William S. Coopers book
"The Evolution of Reason".



In other words could the singularity in mathematics you refer to be
further divided?
The singularity I was referring to is the hypersurface of infinite energy density and curvature which general relativity predicts at the center of a black hole and the Big Bang. It is in the mathematical model - which only shows that the model doesn't apply at these extreme conditions. This was not a surprise to anyone, since it was already known that general relativity isn't compatible with quantum mechanics and is expected to
breakdown at extremely high energies and short distances.

Brent

 Brent

I was attempting to go down another layer of understanding as I see
it.  I will restate an abbreviated opinion:

Numerals (mathematics) and languages are themselves fundamental
instantiations of the laws/rules/inferences of truth… abstract
mathematics representing the precise observed or discovered structure
and order of the universe and the semantically less precise languages
are used to interpret and communicate the mathematical models in
descriptions and predictions of the universe.

I think it's a mistake to think mathematics has something to do with truth. Truth is an attribute of a proposition that expresses a fact. Mathematics consists of relations of inference between propositions - which may or may not express anything at all beyond the relations.

Mathematics concerned usually mathematical truth. You confuse mathematics and the inner working of mathematical theories or machines. Logic, that is metamathematics, studies both aspect (syntactical proof, and the mathematical models of the theories). Everything interesting in logic depends on the relation between those two aspects. for example you have the notion of semantical entialment: A -> B if all models satisfying A satisfy B, and syntactical entailment: you can derive B from A. logicians are happy when they have soundness and completeness theorems linking the two notions. Likewise, and simpler, you have the notion of tautology (true in all models of a theory) and proved proposition (syntactical notion).

Bruno




Mathematics...has multi faceted properties, being at least (1)
representational numbers as in descriptively enumerated models as well
as adjective position in spatiotemporal sequence (ordinals) and (2)
computable numbers as in counting and arithmetic.

Mathematics doesn't exist in space and time; although it may be used to describe them.


Your statement: “I think the rules of inference are encoded in our
brains”, This, I think, infers that primitive mathematics and
languages are instantiated in the biological brain and can,
*potentially*, represent or reflect any and all laws and rules
fundamental to the real (even abstract) and fictional universe.

I don't think laws/rules are fundamental. They are compact models we make up to explain and predict facts.

Brent

The
role of human embodied consciousness in any “theory of everything” is
established by this fact.

Mathematics may be “a subset of language” as you state or language
could also be an extension or instantiation (as a concrete verbal
idea) of what primitive mathematics represents (abstract rules/laws).
In either case it becomes circular as to what is more relevant…
mathematics or the language to understand what the mathematics
represents or enumerates.

It is my opinion that there is no singularity but a duality which
roughly could be stated as both “a state of being” (quanta) and the
“reason of being” (qualia) (access to abstract primitive laws/rules or

as you state “newer information”).

Perhaps monistic materialism and monistic idealism are semantically
created notions that lack “newer information”.

Thanks for your comments.



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