On Dec 14, 8:32 pm, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 12/14/2011 4:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> > How do you know that it's not the computation which is only an
> > appearance emerging from the physical universe, which inherently
> > includes the potential for consciousness? If you ask computation which
> > is primitive, it can only tell you that it is because it has no
> > capacity to make sense of anything else. If you ask only myself what
> > is primitive, I say awareness. To me, the primitive is the symmetry of
> > the two and the function of that symmetry in influencing perspective -
> > which is to me, sense-making.
> Of course if you set out to explain consciousness one possibility is to just 
> assume
> consciousness, i.e. awareness, if fundamental.  But then you need explain 
> everything else,
> physics, Platonia,... in terms of awareness.  Ordinarily "awareness" is a two 
> part
> relation: A is aware of B.  So do you need another primitive to be the object 
> of awareness?

I think the subjective / objective relation is actually the primitive.
One side is just the opposite or exterior of the other, heads and
tails. That's what I'm trying to get at by using the word 'sense'. You
can't get more primitive than sense, and it inherently requires a
detector and a detection. Sense is always something touching
something, either literally or figuratively. Making contact or
bridging the gap.

Really both A and B need to be able to detect each other, although
what they detect is the object side of the other. A sees B only as
something like (ɐq - A), ie, for us the exterior of A is (ɐ) (our
body, sense organs, nervous system, cells, molecules, etc), the
exterior of B is (q) (size, shape, behavior, context, etc). and the
subtraction of A is the absence of subjective identification -
objectification. That loss is mediated by the degree to which (q)
resembles the reflected image of (ɐ), which would be (a). The more you
seem like me, the more I identify with you. What you seem like to me
is not actually you as you are to yourself, but as you are to me. If
I'm a person, an ant is a pest. If I'm an ant, another ant is a family


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