On 26 Dec 2011, at 18:48, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/26/2011 2:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Even if the physics is not concrete, but purely phenomenological as
indicated by steps 1-7 of the UDA, and if the consciousness supervenes on
it, it is still physical supervenience, surely.

Not in the usual sense of supervenience, or what I call sup-phys. It is a notion invented by the materialist/naturalist. We can still have (and we shoud have) a remaining comp-phys supervenience.
I guess I should make this clearer. SUP-PHYS is SUP-PRIMITIVE-PHYS.

So are saying that consciousness must always supervene on physics, but that the physics (and the consciousness) is not fundamental; Both arise from computation?

Yes. That's why I say that the coupling consciousness/realities arise from arithmetic/computations. Human consciousness might really supervene on the local physics, but Löbian consciousness is responsible for the earlier filtering of material realties which can give rise to that local physics. This is handled mathematically by the "material hypostases" (Bp & Dt (& p)). From the points of view of a machine, it always seems her consciousness is related to *some* physics. Our type of physics allows dream sharing, which comes from its first person plural nature (the multiplication of population of machines).



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