On 12/31/2011 1:33 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 31.12.2011 22:00 meekerdb said the following:
On 12/31/2011 5:49 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 31.12.2011 09:17 Pierz said the following:
On Dec 31, 6:17 pm, meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 12/30/2011 12:51 AM, Pierz wrote:
On Dec 30, 6:35 pm, meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 12/29/2011 4:11 PM, Pierz wrote: You think it is
ludicrous that a Mars Rover is programmed to monitor the
state of its battery, the temperature of its motors, the
amount of memory available for pictures, etc?
Brent
<sigh> Let's not go down that boringly overtrodden path, but
agree to disagree on what constitutes consciousness.
<sigh> The phrase was "internal perception" not
"consciousness".
Well usually the term 'perception' entails consciousness. If you
mean that you ate try indifferent as to whether the machine is
conscious, well OK. I see something deeper in the consciousness
problem.
I would agree. When AI people use the word "perception" to describe
a sensor connected to a computer, in my view they loose the biggest
part of the meaning. A human being perceives also unconsciously and
this part of perception could be similar to what we find in Mars
Rover but on the other hand a human being has conscious
experiences. This part is completely missing in AI.
Completely!? How do you know that? The Mars Rover doesn't just record
a sensor value in its computer, it also remember the value and at a
later time it may act on that value in combination with other values,
some internal and some external, to which it assigns different levels
of importance based on overall mission goals. Exactly what would have
to be added to make the Rover human-like conscious?
Conscious experience is what is missing. To this end, it is not enough to write values
in the database. Google saves a lot of information in its database, so what?
Google doesn't learn, plan, or act in our world.
Let us start with human beings. Experiments shows that one can separate conscious and
unconscious experience. Roughly speaking, unconscious experience is some feedback loops
that goes through the brain without us experiencing them. On the contrary, we have for
example 3D visual conscious experience. Please note that part of information from eyes
is processed unconsciously.
But that was my question. What part is processed consciously. I gave my speculation
below. You just said, "conscious experience" was what was needed to make the experience
conscious. I need hardly point out that is a non-answer.
Do you agree that human beings have conscious as well as unconscious experience? If yes,
please separate the experience of Mars Rover into these two components.
I did. See below.
Brent
In my view you find in Mars Rover just feedbacks loop as in a self-driving car. This is
the reason, I have employed the word completely. I agree though, it would be better to
use instead of completely "in my knowledge".
Evgenii
I think it would be recording a kind of general historical narrative
which it would draw on as a source of information used in planning
future actions by means of an internal simulation of itself and the
local environment. I think that would also make it what Bruno calls a
Lobian machine.
Brent
Evgenii
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