On Thu, Jan 12, 2012  Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's the default occidental view.
>

You've said something like that before and I get the distinct impression
that you think occidental people should be ashamed of themselves. I don't.

> if it was just genetics, and genetics were just digital, then identical
> twins would be truly identical, just like a digital file.
>

Identical twins grew up in a different environment, both inside and outside
the womb, and they have different memories too.


>>  Obviously it's a digital code.
>>
>
> > Obviously only because that's what our understanding is.
>

Obviously if you don't understand something then its not obvious.

> If the ribosome could turn CAU into histadine by itself then it wouldn't
need the ribosome.

Nothing turns CAU into histidine, rather the 3 bases CAU in the messenger
RNA means in the digital language of genetics "add a histidine amino acid
to the protein sequence". And yes, the mRNA just gives the order and its up
to a ribosome to actually carry out the command, but the ribosome would not
exist without digital instructions on how to make a ribosome in the first
place, and digital instructions on how to make a transfer RNA molecule, and
digital instructions on how to make aminocyl-tRNA synthetase; and all these
digital instructions came from mRNA, and the digital instructions how to
make mRNA came from DNA. The digital instructions to make DNA came from
more DNA witch can duplicate itself without ribosomes or transfer RNA.  And
all of these instructions  are digital.

> You are still talking about the code itself - I'm talking about the
> execution of the code - the synthesis of protein.
>

For heavens sake, I went into quite a lot of detail about how the code is
executed so that protein gets made, and it could not be more clear that the
cell factory contains digital machines.

> They are not information.
>

According to you nothing is information and that is one reason it is
becoming increasingly difficult to take anything you say seriously.

> CAU does not equal histadine just as the stop light does not equal rush
> hour traffic.
>

A word is not the thing, "CAU" is a word in the RNA language, a word that
means "add the amino acid histidine to the protein sequence" just as "CAT"
in the DNA language means " add CAU to the RNA sequence" ; and everything
is digital.

> You generally don't lose an entire analog document because of a single
> error.
>

If the document was a computer program then that single error could very
well turn a valuable thing into garbage, and a gene is a computer program
the tells cell machinery how to make a particular protein.  Just one small
change in one small gene is the difference between a healthy person and
sombody who has the devastating disease of Sickle Cell Anemia,  the only
difference between the healthy gene and the sick one in the 17'th position
in the 438 sequences of bases,  the codon GAG is changed to GTG and this
means that in beta chain of hemoglobin one of its 146 amino acids will be
wrong,  the amino acid glutamic acid is used instead of valine. So the
protein folds up into the wrong shape and does not work properly.

> Digital is good for copying, but so what?
>

So what? Without good genes you'd be good and dead and you can't get genes
from your parents unless genes could make copies of themselves, very very
very good copies.

> Tertiary protein structure is not digital.
>

BULLSHIT!

> If the chemistry is different, it might not fold the right way.
>

If we had some cream we could have strawberries and cream, if we had some
strawberries.

> the conditions of temperature have a tangible, determining effect
>

As you yourself said "mRNA won't do anything in a dead cell", at the
temperature an pH conditions suitable for life, the same linear digital
sequence of amino acids ALWAYS FOLD UP IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. So no
matter how complex the shape is the information on how to make that shape
HAD to be in the linear sequence of amino acids, and that is digital.

> But the shape causes the sequence to have different functions.
>

Yes.

> If the natural mutation of the sequence changes the shape so it doesn't
> fold in the usual way, the analog properties of the protein are changed.
>

Yes, If you change the digital sequence of amino acids then you change the
complex 3D shape of the protein, and if you change the shape you change the
way the protein functions.

> You just said 'happenstance is the very opposite of intelligence and even
> emotion'.
>

Yes.

> What I am saying is that you are correct in saying that. Now all you have
> to do is realize that intelligence and emotion is also the very opposite of
> determinism.
>

The very opposite of a effect happening because of a cause is a effect NOT
happening because of a cause, that's what the word "not" means; if I tell
you not to stop I want you to go because go is the very opposite of stop.
And the word for a event not happening because of a cause is "random".

> Indeed the whole idea of flipping a coin would make no sense in a
> deterministic universe.
>

Irrelevant, we don't live in a deterministic universe.

> It's [ a computer] just millions of doped silicon crystals holding and
> releasing a feeling of charge, just as an abacus is just wooden beads
> sliding and stopping on a stick.
>

And the human brain is "just" millions of little bags of liquid that from
time to time release chemicals that influence the behavior of other nearby
little bags of liquid; and the speed of that influence moves several
MILLION times slower than equivalent influences in a electronic computer.
No matter how grand and glorious something is if you look at it closely
enough you can find a part that is "just" not grand and glorious at all.

>There is no free will. Just because you attach a motor to the abacus to
> jiggle the beads to make it heavy enough on one side that it triggers a
> mousetrap underneath doesn't mean that suddenly there is free will. Free
> will for what?
>

Can't comment, don't know what ASCII string "free will" means.

> From where could a feeling of voluntary influence arise?
>

>From the inability to always predict what we will do even in a unchanging
environment.

> We are different because voluntary influence is part of our palette of
> natural sensorimotive capacities. We have the bandwidth to participate in
> the world in that way, but the abacus or computer cannot. It doesn't know
> it's a computer.
>

If I'm not mistaken you think consciousness and the ASCII string "free
will" as meaning the same thing, if that is your intention could you do me
a favor and whenever you're tempted to write "free will" use
"consciousness" instead, at least then I can understand what the hell
you're talking about even if I don't agree with it. I can't define
consciousness but I know what it means, on the other hand the "free will"
noise is just drivel.

> It [a computer] probably just knows "--- - - - ———
>

Binary is a language, I'm not fluent in binary so I don't know what that
means and I'm not fluent in Mandarin Chinese either.

>> Did one mind choose to transferring information from his mind to another
>> mind for a reason, or did one mind choose to transferring  information from
>> his mind to another mind for no reason?
>>
>
> > There are many reasons [...]
>

Then its deterministic.

> when we actively yoke this fugue of possibilities together with a single
> course of action [...]
>

That sounds like collation, computers are good at collating stuff.

> What are their reasons for throwing things and making noises?
>

Because I enjoy doing so. Why do I enjoy it? Because that is the way my
brain is wired. Why is that fellow over there not throwing things and
making noises too? Because he has different genes and his brain is wired
differently. Why is my identical twin brother not throwing things and
making noises like I am? Because he has different life experiences that
resulted in different memories and so his brain is wired differently.

On the other hand all that I said above could be incorrect, there could be
no reason whatsoever and thus my odd behavior is random, throwing things
and making noises is a sign that I'm undergoing a serious medical crises
and am having some sort of fit.

  John K Clark

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