On Jan 30, 10:33 pm, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote: > Great, still on the same page. Without getting into speculations about the > kinds of subjective experience a synthetic organism might have, we agree > that whatever they do experience would be shaped in some way by their > organization (like having rods and cones or the silicon equivalents would > allow for the possibility of the experience of color).
It's bi-directional. The organization and experience shape each other. They are part of the same thing, although perpendicular (organization is material forms across volumetric space, experience is entangled perceptions through sequential time...exact opposites, always.) > > We also apparently agree that it is the interactions among the parts (eg > the forces), and not what the parts are made of per se, that determines the > subjectivity No, the interactions arise from the parts themselves, just as civilization arises from a history of actual human beings living and working together. The culture is not an expression of abstract forces among people, it is a concrete realization of people themselves, just as a coral reef is an expression of coral, not reefness. > (granting your point that different substrates might not have > identical dynamics). If a silicon organism and a carbon based organism did > hypothetically experience identical forces, as you say, they would be > identical. Right, because forces are figurative. All forces are experiences of physical beings (person, asteroid, star, atom, etc). When we experience our own forces, it's consciousness, life, work, family, friends, dreams, etc. When we experience something else's forces, it depends how similar that thing is to us. If it's pretty similar, we say it's an animal, and it's forces are instincts. If it's a cell or molecule, we say it's chemical reactions. If it's a physical substance we say it's energy. It's all one thing - stuff being and doing. Not beingness and doingness pretending that it's stuff. Again, it's more useful to model it the wrong way, because that's how we can figure out how to cheat the system, but if we want to understand what is actually going on and what consciousness really is, we need to turn it inside out and come to our own senses. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.