On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net<mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi means. During the initial stage of the experiment mathematicians prove the existence of Pi. When mathematicians 'prove the existence' of something they are just showing that something which satisfies a certain definition can be inferred from a certain set of axioms. In your example the mathematicians may define Pi as the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle in Euclidean geometry. But what does that mean if geometry is not Euclidean; and we know it's not since these mathematicians are in the gravitational field of the Earth. Mathematics is about abstract propositions. Whether they apply to reality is a separate question. Brent I agree that this assumption might not be the best one. I will think it over. However, I do not completely understand you. How the geometry of physical space in which mathematicians reside influences the definition of Pi? Mathematicians will consider just Euclidean geometry, that's it. In my view, whether the physical space Euclidean or not, does not influence the work of mathematicians. Exactly. Hence mathematics =/= reality.This is like comparing the kidney of a whale to a liver of a whale, and decidingwhale=/=whale. You can't compare one limited subset of the whole (such as the localpart of this universe) with another subset of the whole (euclidean geometry), and decidethat the whole (of mathematics) is different from the whole (of reality).

`The same mathematicians in the same place could 'prove the existence' of the meeting point`

`of parallel lines or that through a point there is more than one line parallel to a given`

`line. So no matter what they measure in their bunker it will be consistent with one or`

`the other. So you can only hold that mathematics=reality if you assume everything not`

`self-contradictory exists in reality; but that was what the bunker thought experiment was`

`intended to test. You've essentially made it untestable by saying, well it may fail HERE`

`but somewhere (Platonia?) it's really true.`

Brent

In any case, the problem remains. What is mathematics under the assumption of physicalism? Do you have any idea? It's a language game.This is what Hilbert proposed and what others such as Bertrand Russel tried to prove,but instead the opposite was proved in 1931. Mathematical truth transcends the symbolmanipulation game defined by any set of axioms.Jason Brent A physicist goes off to a conference. After a week his suit’s gotten soiled and crumpled, so he goes out to look for a dry cleaner. Walking down the main street of town, he comes upon a store with a lot of signs out front. One of them says “Dry Cleaning.” So he goes in with his dirty suit and asks when he can come back to pick it up. The mathematician who owns the shop replies, “I’m terribly sorry, but we don’t do dry cleaning.” “What?” exclaims the puzzled physicist. “The sign outside says ‘Dry Cleaning’!” “We do not do anything here,” replies the mathematician. “We only sell signs!” --- Alain Connes, in Changeux Evgenii--You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups"Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. --You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "EverythingList" group.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4852 - Release Date: 03/05/12

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