On 3/5/2012 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following:
On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi
During the initial stage of the experiment mathematicians
existence of Pi.
When mathematicians 'prove the existence' of something they are
showing that something which satisfies a certain definition can
inferred from a certain set of axioms. In your example the
mathematicians may define Pi as the ratio of the circumference
diameter of a circle in Euclidean geometry. But what does that
if geometry is not Euclidean; and we know it's not since these
mathematicians are in the gravitational field of the Earth.
Mathematics is about abstract propositions. Whether they apply
reality is a separate question.
I agree that this assumption might not be the best one. I will
think it over.
However, I do not completely understand you. How the geometry of
space in which mathematicians reside influences the definition of
Mathematicians will consider just Euclidean geometry, that's it. In
view, whether the physical space Euclidean or not, does not
work of mathematicians.
Exactly. Hence mathematics =/= reality.
This is like comparing the kidney of a whale to a liver of a whale, and
whale=/=whale. You can't compare one limited subset of the whole (such as
local part of this universe) with another subset of the whole (euclidean
and decide that the whole (of mathematics) is different from the whole (of
The same mathematicians in the same place could 'prove the existence' of
point of parallel lines or that through a point there is more than one line
to a given line. So no matter what they measure in their bunker it will be
consistent with one or the other. So you can only hold that
you assume everything not self-contradictory exists in reality;
but that was what the bunker thought experiment was intended to test.
I fail to see how the bunker experiment tests this. The bunker experiment seems to
assume that mathematical reality is or depends upon a physical representation.
You've essentially made it untestable by saying, well it may fail HERE but
(Platonia?) it's really true.
People used to say Darwin's theory was untestable, because evolution was such a slow
process they thought it could never be observed. Some on this list have argued that the
hypothesis has already survived one test: the unpredictability in quantum mechanics.
That specific retrodiction came from Bruno's hypothesis which is that universes are
generated by computation. What is computable is much less than all mathematics.
If instead we found our environment and observations of it to be perfectly
deterministic, this would have ruled out mechanism+a single or finite universe.
Further, there is a growing collection of evidence that in most universes, conscious
life is impossible.
There's a popular idea that most possible universes are inhospitable to conscious life: a
theory that might well be false under Bruno's hypothesis in which consciousness and
universes are both realized by computation. In any case it doesn't warrant the conclusion
that all possible universes exist.
This can also be considered as confirmation of the theory that there exists a huge
diversity in structures that have existence. Just because one proposed test will not
work should not imply a theory is untestable.
A final thought: Consider what our universe would look like if you were a being outside
it. You would not be affected by the gravity of objects in our universe, for gravity
only affects physical objects in this universe. You could not see the stars or galaxies
of our universe, for photons never leave it. There would be no relativity of size, or
time, or distance between your perspective and that within our universe. You could not
say what time it happened to be in our universe, or whether the world had even formed
yet or long ago ended. You could in no way make your presence known to us in this
universe, for our universe is bound to follow certain fixed laws. In summary, outside
our universe there is no evidence we even exist; our entire universe is merely an
abstract, immutable and timeless mathematical object.
That's a complete non sequitur.
From the outside, one could study our universe through the window of math and computer
I could study a mathematical or computational representation, but that's not the same as
studying our universe - unless you beg the question.
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