On 3/5/2012 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

    On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
    <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

        On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

            On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following:

                On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

                    The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi 
                    During the initial stage of the experiment mathematicians 
prove the
                    existence of Pi.

                When mathematicians 'prove the existence' of something they are 
                showing that something which satisfies a certain definition can 
                inferred from a certain set of axioms. In your example the
                mathematicians may define Pi as the ratio of the circumference 
to the
                diameter of a circle in Euclidean geometry. But what does that 
                if geometry is not Euclidean; and we know it's not since these
                mathematicians are in the gravitational field of the Earth.
                Mathematics is about abstract propositions. Whether they apply 
                reality is a separate question.


            I agree that this assumption might not be the best one. I will 
think it over.

            However, I do not completely understand you. How the geometry of 
            space in which mathematicians reside influences the definition of 
            Mathematicians will consider just Euclidean geometry, that's it. In 
            view, whether the physical space Euclidean or not, does not 
influence the
            work of mathematicians.

        Exactly. Hence mathematics =/= reality.

    This is like comparing the kidney of a whale to a liver of a whale, and 
    whale=/=whale.  You can't compare one limited subset of the whole (such as 
    local part of this universe) with another subset of the whole (euclidean 
    and decide that the whole (of mathematics) is different from the whole (of 

    The same mathematicians in the same place could 'prove the existence' of 
the meeting
    point of parallel lines or that through a point there is more than one line 
    to a given line.  So no matter what they measure in their bunker it will be
    consistent with one or the other.  So you can only hold that 
mathematics=reality if
    you assume everything not self-contradictory exists in reality;


    but that was what the bunker thought experiment was intended to test.

I fail to see how the bunker experiment tests this. The bunker experiment seems to assume that mathematical reality is or depends upon a physical representation.

    You've essentially made it untestable by saying, well it may fail HERE but 
    (Platonia?) it's really true.

People used to say Darwin's theory was untestable, because evolution was such a slow process they thought it could never be observed. Some on this list have argued that the hypothesis has already survived one test: the unpredictability in quantum mechanics.

That specific retrodiction came from Bruno's hypothesis which is that universes are generated by computation. What is computable is much less than all mathematics.

If instead we found our environment and observations of it to be perfectly deterministic, this would have ruled out mechanism+a single or finite universe. Further, there is a growing collection of evidence that in most universes, conscious life is impossible.

There's a popular idea that most possible universes are inhospitable to conscious life: a theory that might well be false under Bruno's hypothesis in which consciousness and universes are both realized by computation. In any case it doesn't warrant the conclusion that all possible universes exist.

This can also be considered as confirmation of the theory that there exists a huge diversity in structures that have existence. Just because one proposed test will not work should not imply a theory is untestable.

A final thought: Consider what our universe would look like if you were a being outside it. You would not be affected by the gravity of objects in our universe, for gravity only affects physical objects in this universe. You could not see the stars or galaxies of our universe, for photons never leave it. There would be no relativity of size, or time, or distance between your perspective and that within our universe. You could not say what time it happened to be in our universe, or whether the world had even formed yet or long ago ended. You could in no way make your presence known to us in this universe, for our universe is bound to follow certain fixed laws. In summary, outside our universe there is no evidence we even exist; our entire universe is merely an abstract, immutable and timeless mathematical object.

That's a complete non sequitur.

From the outside, one could study our universe through the window of math and computer simulation,

I could study a mathematical or computational representation, but that's not the same as studying our universe - unless you beg the question.


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