On 19 Mar 2012, at 06:20, Stephen P. King wrote:

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COMP is just a formal model of the a form of the relationshipsbetween numbers and the content of observer moments, but it assumesthat some particular set of numbers are ontological primitives andsome idealization of actions that we only know to occur when we runactual calculations on our computers of work out in long form stuffon chalkboards of by the actions of the neurons in our brains.

`I don't think you can say that COMP is just a formal model. COMP is a`

`crucial act of faith about your survival after an annihilation and a`

`reconstitution. You don't ask the doctor for a model of a working`

`brain in your skull, you are asking for the "real thing", which is not`

`a formal thing (indeed it will be provably not formalizable, yet meta-`

`formalisable by the "Bp & p", which *cannot* be translated in the`

`language of the machine, and cannot be duplicated in any provable way`

`by the machine or any machine that the initial machine can understand.`

`That is one reason I insist saying that comp is a (quite strong)`

`theological assumption.`

`Comp does not even assume that numbers are ontologically primitive. It`

`just assumes that you agree with what has been taught to you in`

`highschool (and the "yes doctor" act of faith).`

All scientific theories assume the numbers in this weak sense.

`Numbers (or equivalent) become ontologically primitive only when we`

`realize that the physical reality can no more be ontologically`

`primitive. Indeed we have to assume at least one (Turing) universal`

`entity. Which one is not relevant, except that we cannot use a`

`"physical one" without taking the risk to loose the quanta/qualia`

`distinction.`

COMP is an idealism, a beautiful fiction.

`No, it is not. It can be false, and indeed my point is that we can`

`experimentally refute it. But it might be true. Joseph Knight is`

`right, you can say that comp is true or false. The excluded middle can`

`be applied in this highly classical theological theory. Comp just does`

`not make sense in pure intuitionist philosophy, making such a`

`philosopher forces to say "no" to the doctor, or to abandon`

`momentarily intuitionist philosophy when in the hospital. We cannot`

`construct provably our "3-I", we can only bet on them. "saying yes" to`

`the doctor asks for a minimal amount of realism/platonism, but it is`

`weaker than any physical realism, which, as you know, appears to be`

`incompatible with the comp hypothesis.`

`Comp is not proposed as a formal explanation of mind and matter. It is`

`proposed as an hypothesis in cognitive science, which is really a`

`theological belief akin to a form of reincarnation. The protocol`

`assumes the doctor is choosing the right level of substitution, and`

`that you will survive integrally. If we were allowing amnesia, we`

`might accept other even stronger form of comp for which the excluded`

`middle might no more be applicable, but this is not what we do to`

`prove the reversal.`

This is cheating since we have learned that one thing that Nature isnot is biased about any framing, basis or mereology. Why Integersand not a large but finite field? Why not the P-adics? Why not thesurreals?

`Because comp is based on Church thesis which makes computation`

`equivalent with (sigma_1) arithmetical proposition, roughly speaking.`

`If the doctor uses a p-adic number system, by Church thesis, this will`

`be equivalent to a standard arithmetical set-up. Nature *is* biased`

`toward natural numbers (or equivalent) once you assume Church thesis.`

`So if you assume comp, the good old natural numbers that everyone`

`knows are quite good enough.`

Why not some form of non-standard numbers? Each of these sets havedifferent properties and computational features, we should never beso anthropocentric to think that "Man is the measure of all things!",

`But comp and computer science makes the Universal Turing Machine the`

`measure of all things. We have no choice in that matter.`

which is exactly what we are claiming when we say that "... ourgeneralized brains ..." are this and that, such as what is impliedby "...the latter is just a restatement of the former." The point isthat we first need to dig a bit deeper and establish by naturalmathematical means that 1) digital substitution is a soundmathematical concept and 2) that it is possible.

`1) Yes, thanks to the notion of level, digital substitution is well`

`defined, and sound (if the level is correctly chosen).`

2) That it is (in principle) possible *is* the comp assumption.

So I ask again: Why are we putting our selves through suchconvoluted abstractions to talk about the simple idea of movingthough space-time?

`Because we are interested in the comp mind body problem. Not in`

`physics, per se. But with comp, to solve the mind-body problem we are`

`OBLIGED to explain all the space-time feature from the "block-`

`mindscape", which is itself entirely structured by the +/* number`

`structure. That is the result: a reduction of the mind-body problem to`

`a well defined body problem in arithmetic/machine-theology. AUDA gives`

`already the propositional solution. To extend it to the whole physics`

`of qualia and quanta, you need to extend AUDA at the first order`

`logical level, which is not simple.`

At least try to understand my point here. I am trying to explainthat there are things that numbers alone cannot do, they cannotcount themselves. They cannot perform any form of activity, they arepurely and perpetually static and fixed. Therefore any talk thatinvolves any kind of activity or change is nonsense in COMP.Everything is assumed to occur simultaneously as if the speed oflight where infinite, the laws of thermodynamics do not apply toinformation processing and there is no such thing as a space or time.

`But this critics works for any theory which does not assume a`

`primitive "real time" (and what would that mean?). Any physics with a`

`notion of block universe is criticized by your argument. If you`

`believe that there is a primitive time, then UDA should convince you`

`not only that COMP is false, but quantum mechanics (without collapse)`

`too, and general relativity too.`

`Personally I find that assuming notion like space and time answer`

`nothing, and that is what motivated me in showing that comp implies`

`that such notion cannot be used to explain our perception of time and`

`space.`

If we are going to invoke concepts of continuity and differentialmapping into continuities then we had better know what we aretalking about! Which infinity are you assuming? Are you assuming thecontinuum hypothesis of Cantor to be true of false? So manyunanswered questions just being glossed over.

`But those questions have not yet appear. They are premature, and more`

`complex than the technical question we can already formulated. You`

`seem to continue to think that comp is a theory/model that we can used`

`to explain things. But comp is a (scientific, modest) theology, in`

`which we can "believe", hope, or fear, and which makes just many`

`fundamental question technically formulable. In particular it does`

`answer the question "where does the universe come from?". The answer`

`is, by the truth about addition and multiplication, and the technical`

`details are accessible to any universal machines.`

`You will ask: "where does addition and multiplication comes from".`

`This, in the comp theory can be answered: we will never know, at least`

`in any publicly communicable way. We already need the numbers to give`

`sense to the question, and we can show that without assuming them (or`

`equivalent) we cannot recover them.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.