On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> >>  If 2 different consciousnesses can not be distinguished in my
> symmetrical room from the first person point of view or from the third
> person point of view then it seems pointless to insist that there are
> really 2 and not just one mind involved.
> > We agree on this since the beginning.

Then why why why do you keep talking about things being the same from the
"3-view" but not from the "1-view".

> It seems to me that you are playing with words.

Words are the only means we have to communicate with and I need to know
what they mean and that is not always obvious in very extreme and unusual
(but not illogical) situations.

>> But you can see there are 2 bodies of Bruno Marchal just as well as the
>> outside observer, and you can not tell which one is you any better than the
>> outside observer can!
> > No. The outsider can see both necks for example. The insider cannot be
> sure that he is not in front of some mirror, according to your own
> analysis.

No, you can touch the other fellow and he does not feel like a glass
mirror, you can shake his hand, punch him in the jaw, do whatever 2 people
can do when they meet each other, but if I instantly exchanged the position
of the 2 bodies you would not notice the slightest difference, not from the
1-view or 2-view or 3-view or any view, the very universe itself would
notice no difference. If subjectively it makes no difference and
objectively it makes no difference then call me crazy but I say it makes no

> So you fail to distinguish the 1-view and the 3-view.

Yes, the universe itself can't distinguish between them and I'm not better
than the universe.

> OK. So what is new with comp is a form of indeterminacy which even in
> theory we cannot predict, and which does not rely on physical
> experimentation and extrapolation, nor on the same anti-diagonalization
> used by Gödel or Turing.

So in this hypothetical non quantum mechanical non Godel-Turing universe I
could know at least in theory with 100% certainty that I will see
Washington provided the universe was also simple enough for me to know the
initial conditions and simple enough for me to calculate with them to
obtain a outcome.  And because I'd know I would see Washington I would know
with 100% certainty that I will be the Washington man. I ask again what is
new or deep here?

> Never say "cannot be proven" without adding "by a specific machine M"

There are true statements that cannot be proven by a machine that is both
consistent and complete, and any machine powerful enough to do arithmetic
can not be complete.

>> You want to know what is the probability you will become the Moscow man,
>> but the only way that can happen is if you see images of Moscow, that's
>> what being the Moscow man means.
> > You can apply that argument to the throwing of a coin. That contradicts
> the statement above that you can use probability for the coin, so why can't
> you use it for the probability of feeling to be the Moscow man?

In common usage when you say "what is the probability I will see heads when
I flip this coin?" there is not a 100% chance I will see heads as there is
in the thought experiment with the cities, but even more important in
everyday use it is not needed to make what might seem like hairsplitting
distinctions on who "I" is,  but such exactitude is needed if duplicating
chambers are thrown into the mix. And if there is any mystery and
indeterminacy in this thing you call "first person indeterminacy" it
quickly reduces out to types of indeterminacy we've already known about,
some for many thousands of years and others for only about 80.

> Given that the probability concerns the 1-views (that is the 1-view from
> the 1-person Pov), saying 100% for Moscow and 100% for Washington entails
> that you predict that you will *feel* to be in the two places at once.

"You" would feel to be in two places at once except for one thing, "you"
has been duplicated.

  John K Clark

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