On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote

> > I don't say that [the free will noise] means you're not deterministic,

I would be glad to hear you say that except that according to illogical
Weinbergian logic just because something is not not deterministic does not
mean its deterministic, so I don't know what the hell you mean.

>I say that means you can make determinations.

If a determination is not made for a reason then its not a determination,
it’s a crap-shoot.

> Sometimes those determinations are influenced more by conditions you
> perceive as external to yourself,

Sometimes a computer's CPU works on data already in it's memory unit, and
sometimes it works on newly inputted data.

> and sometimes it is you who are influencing external conditions.

And sometimes computers output data to external things like printers or
video screens or internet connections and sometimes they do not.

> you can voluntarily choose to reason differently

Yes I can change my mind, I've done it before but in the past whenever I
changed my internal programming I have always done so for a reason, if I
ever find myself changing my mind for no reason then I intend to call 911
because I'm undergoing a serious medical emergency of some sort and a
hardware malfunction is going on in my brain.

> If you are completely deterministic, then how do you know that the car
> isn't driving you instead of you driving a car?

If I determine that the brake needs to be applied I find that my foot
depresses the brake peddle and I feel (correctly I think) that I am in

> free will is neither fully deterministic nor random, nor fully not
> deterministic nor random.

That makes no sense. You say "I have free will" so I don't see how
randomness can help you clarify what that means because "I" is something
but something does not cause random things to happen, nothing does, so the
concept of randomness is no help at all in understanding what the ASCII
sequence "I have free will" means.

> Just as Spring is neither fully Summer nor Winter,

Large complex things like the weather usually happen for many reasons, but
every one of those reasons themselves happened for a reason or they did not
happen for a reason. And one thing is beyond dispute to any logical person,
spring is summer or spring is not summer.

> If you insist upon arbitrarily reducing the universe to a single
> dimension of determined vs random, then

Then I have understood the lesson taught on day one of logic 101, that X is
Y or X is not Y and there is no third alternative.

> you cannot understand consciousness as it actually is.

I'll be damned if I understand why determinism is supposed to be the enemy
of consciousness or why things that happen for no reason at all,
randomness, is supposed to make everything all better.

>> that your list of questions came out right after my sentence. And you
>> believe that although there was no reason behind your list of questions
> >There were all kinds of reasons behind my listing of questions

Yes, there are many different types of deterministic processes.

> I created them by reasoning.

Yet another deterministic process.

>It was caused by me.

If it's caused then it's obviously deterministic.

>I can be described as nothing or not nothing

Obviously gibberish.

> It determines and fails to determine.

More of the same, up is down black is white gibberish is not gibberish and
clarity is nowhere to be found in your universe.

John K Clark

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