2012/5/17 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> > On May 17, 12:01 am, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com > >wrote > > > > > > I don't say that [the free will noise] means you're not > deterministic, > > > > I would be glad to hear you say that except that according to illogical > > Weinbergian logic just because something is not not deterministic does > not > > mean its deterministic, so I don't know what the hell you mean. > > Why is it Weinbergian logic? Have you not noticed that others here who > are also trying to tell you what orthogonal means? What might that be > about in Clarkian logic? > > > > > >I say that means you can make determinations. > > > > If a determination is not made for a reason then its not a determination, > > it’s a crap-shoot. > > Determinations are not usually made for A reason, they are made for > MANY reasons. It's always a guess to some degree and an informed > acquiescence to some degree, and a personal preference to some degree. > > > > > > Sometimes those determinations are influenced more by conditions you > > > perceive as external to yourself, > > > > Sometimes a computer's CPU works on data already in it's memory unit, and > > sometimes it works on newly inputted data. > > 'Newly inputted' data is still in it's memory unit. The CPU doesn't > spontaneously generate new feelings like the human mind does. > > > > > > and sometimes it is you who are influencing external conditions. > > > > And sometimes computers output data to external things like printers or > > video screens or internet connections and sometimes they do not. > > That's true, but they don't care whether they output or not. It's not > driven by their own intention. They won't EVER discover a printer that > is sitting right next to them without having drivers loaded and > configured to even connect. >
Your unique argument against a program being able to be conscious (as conscious as a human can be) is to take a non-conscious program and to say "see it's not conscious"... well yes it is not, that doesn't mean no program can be. Quentin > > > > > > you can voluntarily choose to reason differently > > > > Yes I can change my mind, I've done it before but in the past whenever I > > changed my internal programming I have always done so for a reason, if I > > ever find myself changing my mind for no reason then I intend to call 911 > > because I'm undergoing a serious medical emergency of some sort and a > > hardware malfunction is going on in my brain. > > Did the reason change your internal programming by itself while you > passively watched or did you voluntarily decide to commit to it? > > > > > > If you are completely deterministic, then how do you know that the car > > > isn't driving you instead of you driving a car? > > > > If I determine that the brake needs to be applied I find that my foot > > depresses the brake peddle and I feel (correctly I think) that I am in > > control. > > How do you know the car isn't controlling your foot instead? According > to your argument, there would be no way to tell the difference as > either description of the event of braking is equally accurate and > deterministic. > > > > > > free will is neither fully deterministic nor random, nor fully not > > > deterministic nor random. > > > > That makes no sense. You say "I have free will" so I don't see how > > randomness can help you clarify what that means because "I" is something > > but something does not cause random things to happen, > > If you talk to a schizophrenic, what they say will seem more random > than someone else. Their I is causing things to happen with more > randomness. > > > nothing does, so the > > concept of randomness is no help at all in understanding what the ASCII > > sequence "I have free will" means. > > You are the one who keeps injecting random into this. I don't need > random at all to understand free will. Random is nothing but a quality > of pattern recognition. If we can't find a pattern, we call it random. > Maybe every radioactive decay event in the universe is eventually > going to synchronize to spell out God's name in Red, White, and Blue > letters on his TV screen, how would we know? > > > > > > Just as Spring is neither fully Summer nor Winter, > > > > Large complex things like the weather usually happen for many reasons, > but > > every one of those reasons themselves happened for a reason or they did > not > > happen for a reason. > > Um, I'm not saying anything about the weather being deterministic or > not, I am strictly talking about how things can be arranged > orthogonally. I am disproving your claim that everything must be only > one thing or another thing. > > > And one thing is beyond dispute to any logical person, > > spring is summer or spring is not summer. > > Which is it? Is spring summer or is spring not summer? Isn't spring > nothing but the transition from winter to summer? Without that > transition to summer could you have spring? Spring and summer are just > different degrees of the same thing. > > > > > > If you insist upon arbitrarily reducing the universe to a single > > > dimension of determined vs random, then > > > > Then I have understood the lesson taught on day one of logic 101, that X > is > > Y or X is not Y and there is no third alternative. > > You have understood that all too well, but you have not progressed to > logic 102. There are always more than two alternatives and X and Y are > symbolic constructs, not concrete realities. > > > > > > you cannot understand consciousness as it actually is. > > > > I'll be damned if I understand why determinism is supposed to be the > enemy > > of consciousness or why things that happen for no reason at all, > > randomness, is supposed to make everything all better. > > Determinism and randomness are both figments of consciousness. They > are not the enemy, they are the fruits. > > > > > >> that your list of questions came out right after my sentence. And you > > >> believe that although there was no reason behind your list of > questions > > > > > >There were all kinds of reasons behind my listing of questions > > > > Yes, there are many different types of deterministic processes. > > And I choose among them and/or create my own new processes > dynamically. > > > > > > I created them by reasoning. > > > > Yet another deterministic process. > > There is a difference between making a determination and being > determined to passively watch a determination be made on your behalf. > Do you deny that? What is that difference? Hint: it's that ASCII > string that you dare not speak. > > > > > >It was caused by me. > > > > If it's caused then it's obviously deterministic. > > Free will = caused by me (intentionally). You can call free will > deterministic if you want, but what would be the point? What does that > word mean if it includes all possibilities including libertarian free > will? > > > > > >I can be described as nothing or not nothing > > > > Obviously gibberish. > > Not at all. Some people only consider matter to be things, so I may by > that definition be nothing. Dan Dennett might argue that he and I and > you are nothing. > > > > > > It determines and fails to determine. > > > > More of the same, up is down black is white gibberish is not gibberish > and > > clarity is nowhere to be found in your universe. > > Clarity is a consequence of intention. If your intention is to > describe the universe, then you must clearly describe it in a way that > embraces all of it's involuted paradox/unity. > > Craig > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.