2012/5/17 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>

> On May 17, 12:01 am, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com
> >wrote
> >
> > > > I don't say that [the free will noise] means you're not
> deterministic,
> >
> > I would be glad to hear you say that except that according to illogical
> > Weinbergian logic just because something is not not deterministic does
> not
> > mean its deterministic, so I don't know what the hell you mean.
>
> Why is it Weinbergian logic? Have you not noticed that others here who
> are also trying to tell you what orthogonal means? What might that be
> about in Clarkian logic?
>
> >
> > >I say that means you can make determinations.
> >
> > If a determination is not made for a reason then its not a determination,
> > it’s a crap-shoot.
>
> Determinations are not usually made for A reason, they are made for
> MANY reasons. It's always a guess to some degree and an informed
> acquiescence to some degree, and a personal preference to some degree.
>
> >
> > > Sometimes those determinations are influenced more by conditions you
> > > perceive as external to yourself,
> >
> > Sometimes a computer's CPU works on data already in it's memory unit, and
> > sometimes it works on newly inputted data.
>
> 'Newly inputted' data is still in it's memory unit. The CPU doesn't
> spontaneously generate new feelings like the human mind does.
>
> >
> > > and sometimes it is you who are influencing external conditions.
> >
> > And sometimes computers output data to external things like printers or
> > video screens or internet connections and sometimes they do not.
>
> That's true, but they don't care whether they output or not. It's not
> driven by their own intention. They won't EVER discover a printer that
> is sitting right next to them without having drivers loaded and
> configured to even connect.
>

Your unique argument against a program being able to be conscious (as
conscious as a human can be) is to take a non-conscious program  and to say
"see it's not conscious"... well yes it is not, that doesn't mean no
program can be.

Quentin


>
> >
> > > you can voluntarily choose to reason differently
> >
> > Yes I can change my mind, I've done it before but in the past whenever I
> > changed my internal programming I have always done so for a reason, if I
> > ever find myself changing my mind for no reason then I intend to call 911
> > because I'm undergoing a serious medical emergency of some sort and a
> > hardware malfunction is going on in my brain.
>
> Did the reason change your internal programming by itself while you
> passively watched or did you voluntarily decide to commit to it?
>
> >
> > > If you are completely deterministic, then how do you know that the car
> > > isn't driving you instead of you driving a car?
> >
> > If I determine that the brake needs to be applied I find that my foot
> > depresses the brake peddle and I feel (correctly I think) that I am in
> > control.
>
> How do you know the car isn't controlling your foot instead? According
> to your argument, there would be no way to tell the difference as
> either description of the event of braking is equally accurate and
> deterministic.
>
> >
> > > free will is neither fully deterministic nor random, nor fully not
> > > deterministic nor random.
> >
> > That makes no sense. You say "I have free will" so I don't see how
> > randomness can help you clarify what that means because "I" is something
> > but something does not cause random things to happen,
>
> If you talk to a schizophrenic, what they say will seem more random
> than someone else. Their I is causing things to happen with more
> randomness.
>
> > nothing does, so the
> > concept of randomness is no help at all in understanding what the ASCII
> > sequence "I have free will" means.
>
> You are the one who keeps injecting random into this. I don't need
> random at all to understand free will. Random is nothing but a quality
> of pattern recognition. If we can't find a pattern, we call it random.
> Maybe every radioactive decay event in the universe is eventually
> going to synchronize to spell out God's name in Red, White, and Blue
> letters on his TV screen, how would we know?
>
> >
> > > Just as Spring is neither fully Summer nor Winter,
> >
> > Large complex things like the weather usually happen for many reasons,
> but
> > every one of those reasons themselves happened for a reason or they did
> not
> > happen for a reason.
>
> Um, I'm not saying anything about the weather being deterministic or
> not, I am strictly talking about how things can be arranged
> orthogonally. I am disproving your claim that everything must be only
> one thing or another thing.
>
> > And one thing is beyond dispute to any logical person,
> > spring is summer or spring is not summer.
>
> Which is it? Is spring summer or is spring not summer? Isn't spring
> nothing but the transition from winter to summer? Without that
> transition to summer could you have spring? Spring and summer are just
> different degrees of the same thing.
>
> >
> > > If you insist upon arbitrarily reducing the universe to a single
> > > dimension of determined vs random, then
> >
> > Then I have understood the lesson taught on day one of logic 101, that X
> is
> > Y or X is not Y and there is no third alternative.
>
> You have understood that all too well, but you have not progressed to
> logic 102. There are always more than two alternatives and X and Y are
> symbolic constructs, not concrete realities.
>
> >
> > > you cannot understand consciousness as it actually is.
> >
> > I'll be damned if I understand why determinism is supposed to be the
> enemy
> > of consciousness or why things that happen for no reason at all,
> > randomness, is supposed to make everything all better.
>
> Determinism and randomness are both figments of consciousness. They
> are not the enemy, they are the fruits.
>
> >
> > >> that your list of questions came out right after my sentence. And you
> > >> believe that although there was no reason behind your list of
> questions
> >
> > > >There were all kinds of reasons behind my listing of questions
> >
> > Yes, there are many different types of deterministic processes.
>
> And I choose among them and/or create my own new processes
> dynamically.
>
> >
> > > I created them by reasoning.
> >
> > Yet another deterministic process.
>
> There is a difference between making a determination and being
> determined to passively watch a determination be made on your behalf.
> Do you deny that? What is that difference? Hint: it's that ASCII
> string that you dare not speak.
>
> >
> > >It was caused by me.
> >
> > If it's caused then it's obviously deterministic.
>
> Free will = caused by me (intentionally). You can call free will
> deterministic if you want, but what would be the point? What does that
> word mean if it includes all possibilities including libertarian free
> will?
>
> >
> > >I can be described as nothing or not nothing
> >
> > Obviously gibberish.
>
> Not at all. Some people only consider matter to be things, so I may by
> that definition be nothing. Dan Dennett might argue that he and I and
> you are nothing.
>
> >
> > > It determines and fails to determine.
> >
> > More of the same, up is down black is white gibberish is not gibberish
> and
> > clarity is nowhere to be found in your universe.
>
> Clarity is a consequence of intention. If your intention is to
> describe the universe, then you must clearly describe it in a way that
> embraces all of it's involuted paradox/unity.
>
> Craig
>
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