On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:

> They [computers] won't EVER discover a printer that is sitting right next
> to them without having drivers loaded and configured


And you won't EVER discover a printer sitting right next to you if you had
no eyes or hands.

> Did the reason change your internal programming by itself while you
> passively watched or did you voluntarily decide to commit to it?
>

"Voluntarily" just means a change made because I wanted to, and that want
came about for a reason or it did not come about for a reason and the free
will noise is not needed to understand any of this.


> > How do you know the car isn't controlling your foot instead?
>

As long as me and my car agree where my foot should be it wouldn't matter,
and so far I haven't been in any major car wrecks so we seem to agree on
where my foot should be.

> According to your argument, there would be no way to tell the difference


I believe I just said that, and if there is no way to tell the difference
then there is no reason to care.

> You are the one who keeps injecting random into this.


I am just injecting the very obvious and noncontroversial fact that events
happen for a reason or they do not.

> I don't need random at all to understand free will.


Fine, then you think we always do things for a reason, a cuckoo clock does
too.

> Random is nothing but a quality of pattern recognition. If we can't find
> a pattern, we call it random.
>

You're a little behind the times, a century ago most thought that was
probably true and that everything had a cause we just don't know it, but
today most think it's probably false and even a century ago it was known
that there is no law of logic that demands all events have associated
causes. However this is all irrelevant, true or false it will not help you
explain what the hell the ASCII string "free will" is supposed to mean.

> Which is it? Is spring summer or is spring not summer?


Spring is not summer.


> > Spring and summer are just different degrees of the same thing

                                                    ^^^^^^^^

Yes they are *different* so spring is not summer. Do I really have to
explain this? I was taught this in preschool. Sesame Street had a song
about it:

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others By the time I finish my
song?

Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!

>>there are many different types of deterministic processes.
>>
>
> > And I choose among them and/or create my own new processes dynamically.
>

You keep throwing around that word "choice" as if its a talisman against
uncomfortable logic, but the fact remains that every single choice you have
ever made in your life was made for a reason or it was not made for a
reason; and no amount of mixing and matching determinism and randomness
will get you where you want to go with the free will noise, not even if you
knew where you wanted it to go with it and of course you do not. All you
know is you don't like where logic leads you on the free will path, into
the mystical land of gibberish.

> There is a difference between making a determination and being determined
> to passively watch a determination
>

I don't know what passively determined means.

> Free will = caused by me (intentionally). You can call free will
> deterministic


You say it's caused so what the hell else except deterministic am I
supposed to call it?

>What does that word mean if it includes all possibilities including
> libertarian free will?
>

That word salad has a question mark at the end so I guess its a question
but of exactly what I can not say. All I know is that I've been a
libertarian all my life and all my life I've known that people who like to
make the "free will" noise have no idea what it means.

 John K Clark

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