On May 18, 4:12 pm, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > They [computers] won't EVER discover a printer that is sitting right next
> > to them without having drivers loaded and configured
>
> And you won't EVER discover a printer sitting right next to you if you had
> no eyes or hands.

Sure I would. I could listen for it running. I could yell out, 'hey
can someone turn on the printer' or fumble around with my foot or a
cane and turn it on with my teeth.

>
> > Did the reason change your internal programming by itself while you
> > passively watched or did you voluntarily decide to commit to it?
>
> "Voluntarily" just means a change made because I wanted to, and that want
> came about for a reason or it did not come about for a reason and the free
> will noise is not needed to understand any of this.

All free will means is any change made because you wanted to. It
doesn't matter why you made the change, because the decision
ultimately is yours. You decide what reasons you care about to some
degree (any degree greater than 'not at all ever' will do to establish
some level of free will).

>
> > > How do you know the car isn't controlling your foot instead?
>
> As long as me and my car agree where my foot should be it wouldn't matter,
> and so far I haven't been in any major car wrecks so we seem to agree on
> where my foot should be.

That's a philosophically valid way to think about it but it's complete
crap. It's what you tell someone if you want to spend a few days in
the psych ward. If I was into multisense unrealism, I would agree,
yes, that's a cool way of thinking about it, but if I had to guess at
how the universe actually works or be run over by a riding mower, I
would go with the obvious reality that we are driving the car and the
car is going where we are driving it, not the other way around.

>
> > According to your argument, there would be no way to tell the difference
>
> I believe I just said that, and if there is no way to tell the difference
> then there is no reason to care.

But if you actually can't tell the difference in reality, you are
having a psychotic episode.

>
> > You are the one who keeps injecting random into this.
>
> I am just injecting the very obvious and noncontroversial fact that events
> happen for a reason or they do not.

My decisions aren't events that happen unless I decide to make them
happen.

>
> > I don't need random at all to understand free will.
>
> Fine, then you think we always do things for a reason, a cuckoo clock does
> too.

Can a cuckoo clock decide to nail the door of the clock shut?

>
> > Random is nothing but a quality of pattern recognition. If we can't find
> > a pattern, we call it random.
>
> You're a little behind the times, a century ago most thought that was
> probably true and that everything had a cause we just don't know it, but
> today most think it's probably false and even a century ago it was known
> that there is no law of logic that demands all events have associated
> causes. However this is all irrelevant, true or false it will not help you
> explain what the hell the ASCII string "free will" is supposed to mean.

How can you tell the difference between something random and something
caused by an agent you have no understanding of?

>
> > Which is it? Is spring summer or is spring not summer?
>
> Spring is not summer.

Why not? Spring and summer can be two different ways of referring to
the warmer time of year. Light blue could be named Cool green instead.
Words are made up. In the tropics they undoubtedly have the same word
for spring and summer. Where I live there is no meaningful difference
between the seasons anymore. It can be winter in the afternoon and
summer at night. It happens all the time.

>
> > > Spring and summer are just different degrees of the same thing
>
>                                                     ^^^^^^^^
>
> Yes they are *different* so spring is not summer. Do I really have to
> explain this? I was taught this in preschool. Sesame Street had a song
> about it:
>
> One of these things is not like the others,
> One of these things just doesn't belong,
> Can you tell which thing is not like the others By the time I finish my
> song?
>
> Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
> Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
> If you guessed this one is not like the others,
> Then you're absolutely...right!

Yes but I outgrew Sesame Street and narrow literalism. I understand
that the map is not the territory. I understand semiotics and
psychology. I have explained that the idea of Spring not being summer
is a relative interpretation. Where I live January is considered
winter. In Australia January isn't winter. There are always exceptions
to every arbitrary linguistic convention. Language is constantly
evolving and redefining itself.

>
> >>there are many different types of deterministic processes.
>
> > > And I choose among them and/or create my own new processes dynamically.
>
> You keep throwing around that word "choice" as if its a talisman against
> uncomfortable logic, but the fact remains that every single choice you have
> ever made in your life was made for a reason or it was not made for a
> reason;

I have responded to this several times. I have never made any choice
for only one reason. If I did, then it wouldn't be a choice. A choice
is the weighing and selecting among feelings, intuitions, whims, and
reasons.

> and no amount of mixing and matching determinism and randomness
> will get you where you want to go with the free will noise,

If you won't respect free will then I don't respect your use of "get
you where you want to go". From now on I don't recognize your
addressing any sort of voluntary animus or agenda on my part. Your
'you want to' string is disqualified.

> not even if you
> knew where you wanted it to go

Bzzt. You can't say that I wanted something. There are only reasons.

> with it and of course you do not. All you
> know is you don't like

Bzzt. Do not recognize your use of "you don't like". What does that
mean? What I like can only come from reasons, just as yours would if
you could like anything. Denied.

> where logic leads you on the free will path, into
> the mystical land of gibberish.

Is gibberish another form of reason or is it no reason? Is it possible
to fail to understand something without that thing actually being
gibberish?

>
> > There is a difference between making a determination and being determined
> > to passively watch a determination
>
> I don't know what passively determined means.

It looks like I said "to passively watch a determination" to me.

>
> > Free will = caused by me (intentionally). You can call free will
> > deterministic
>
> You say it's caused so what the hell else except deterministic am I
> supposed to call it?

Intentional. You are conflating Intentional and Determinism when the
truth is more like Summer and Fall. Orthogonal.

>
> >What does that word mean if it includes all possibilities including
> > libertarian free will?
>
> That word salad has a question mark at the end so I guess its a question
> but of exactly what I can not say. All I know is that I've been a
> libertarian all my life and all my life I've known that people who like to
> make the "free will" noise have no idea what it means.
>

What you think liberty is if not free will?

Craig

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