# Re: The limit of all computations

```2012/5/22 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>

>  On 5/21/2012 10:56 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>
>
>
> 2012/5/22 Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net>
>
>>  On 5/21/2012 3:49 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2012/5/21 Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net>
>>
>>>  On 5/21/2012 7:54 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2012/5/21 Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net>
>>>
>>>> On 5/21/2012 1:55 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No it's not a computation, it arises because at every step,
>>>>> computations diverge into new sets of infinite computations, giving rise
>>>>> to
>>>>> the 1p indeterminacy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quentin
>>>>>
>>>>>   Hi Quentin,
>>>>
>>>>    So could we agree that the idea that the universe is
>>>> defined/determined ab initio ("in the beginning") is refuted by this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't know what you mean here... but in comp the universe per se does
>>> not exist, it emerges from computations and is not an object by itself
>>> (independent of computations).
>>>
>>>
>>>  Dear Quentin,
>>>
>>>     My interest is philosophy so I am asking questions in an attempt to
>>> here implies to me that only "objects" (considered as capable of being
>>> separate and isolated from all others) can "exist". Only "objects" exist
>>> and not, for example, processes. Is this correct?
>>>
>>
>> No, it depends what you mean by existing. When I say "in comp the
>> universe per se does not exist", I mean it does not exist ontologically as
>> it emerge from computations. Existence means different thing at different
>> level.
>>
>> Does a table exist ? It depends at which level you describe it.
>>
>>
>>  Dear Quentin,
>>
>>     I am trying to understand exactly how you think and define words.
>>
>>     By "exist"
>>
>
> Existence is dependent on the level of description, and can be seperated
> by what exists ontologically and what exists epistemologically. So it
> depends on the theory you use to define existence.
>
> I would favor a theory which would define existence by what can be
> experienced/observed. Maybe it's a lack of imagination, but I don't know
> what it would mean for a thing to exist and never be observed/experienced.
>
>
>
> You're not likely to experience a quark or even an atom.
>```
```
Well I didn't say *I*... observer != human. It's something that can
interact (with the rest of the world)... And also I agree that what *I*
think exists is determined by the model of the world I use... but what
really exists doesn't care about what I think or the model I have ;)

Quentin

>   What exists is determined by your model of the world.  Even parts of the
> model that make no possible difference to the experiences the model
> predicts may be kept because they make the theory simpler, e.g.
> infinitesimal distances in physics.
>
> Brent
>
>
>
>
>> are you considering capacity of the referent of a word, say table, of
>> being actually experiencing by anyone that might happen to be in its
>> vecinity or otherwise capable of being causally affected by the presence
>> and non-presence of the table?
>>
>>
>>
>> I still don't understand what you mean by "the idea that the universe is
>> defined/determined ab initio ("in the beginning") is refuted by this".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Quentin
>>
>>
>>      Don't worry about that for now. Let us nail down what "existence" is
>> first.
>>
>> --
>> Onward!
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>> "Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."
>> ~ Francis Bacon
>>
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>
>
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