2012/5/31 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
> On May 31, 1:54 am, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2012/5/31 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
> > > On May 30, 6:09 pm, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > You are defining a 'real computer' in terms in terms that you are
> > > > > smuggling in from our real world of physics. In a Church-Turing
> > > > > Matrix, why would there be any kind of arbitrary level separation?
> > > > > whole point is that there is no fundamental difference between one
> > > > > Turing emulation and another. Paris is a program.
> > > > A program is running on a machine... a program interact through
> > > > and that's the **only** way to interact.
> > > Huh? A program interacts with another program directly.
> > Yes ? Give me an example, the most basic interface is shared memory (and
> > eventually, any shared thing is done via memory access)... So give me a
> > program that can talk/share thing with another program without any
> > interface between them...
> You brought in the term interface specifically to talk about the
> necessity to intentionally bridge two separate layers of reality. To
> use a computer, I need a KVM or touchscreen or whatever, an interface
> that samples the behavior of physical matter and maps it to
> microelectronic settings. I pointed out that in a truly digitial
> universe, no such thing would be necessary and nothing would be
> prevented by the lack of such a thing.
> Once something is native digital, it can be integrated with anything
> else that is digital native - that is sort of the point. It's all
> virtual. Any formalized virtual interfaces, a KVM in Second Life or
> The Matrix or whatever, are purely decorative. They are cartoon
> facades. The actual code doesn't need any kind of graphic
> representation or digital-to-something-to-digital transduction to pass
> from one area of memory to another.
> > > There is no
> > > interface. It makes no difference to the OS of the HW node whether the
> > > program is running virtual Paris on the root level of the physical
> > > machine or virtual virtual Paris on one of the virtual machines.
> > Yes there is a difference, the paris running on a virtual machine has no
> > direct access (and can't know of it unless an interface exist) on the
> > physical hardware.
> The virtual machine has the same access to the physical hardware as
> the root level.
That's complete bullshit... If my emulator does not give you access to the
host hardware it does not... The point is that the program running on the
emulator *****HAS NO WAY***** to know it does not run on physical hardware
if no interface is present to give it access to it.
Shared memory ****IS**** an interface. But anyway, I leave this discussion
here, can't cure your stupidity.
> It's entirely up to the programmer how direct they
> want it to appear to the user, but ultimately, it is still just a
> program running on the hardware. The virtual machine cannot run
> without hardware.
> > > > > > If not you aren't really doing multi level simulation
> (simulation in
> > > a
> > > > > > simulation)... but a single level one where you made it look like
> > > multi
> > > > > > level.
> > > > > > Example: if you run a virtual machine (like virtual box) and you
> > > > > virtualize
> > > > > > an OS and inside that one you run a virtual box that run another
> > > > > inside
> > > > > > it, the second level cannot go to the first level (as the first
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > reach the host) unless an interface between them exists.
> > > > > No, you can. I can log into the root level on a hardware node -
> pick a
> > > > > virtual machine on that node and log into it, open up a remote
> > > > > there and log back into the hardware node that the VM box is on if
> > > > > want. I can reboot the hardware machine from any nested level
> > > > > the node. There doesn't need to be an interface at all. They are
> > > > > running on the same physical hardware node.
> > > > Well you can't read "unless an interface between them exists."
> > > What interface are you talking about? I can make a million nested
> > > layers of virtual worlds and I can make it so the same virtual fire
> > > burns in all of them, with no interface required.
> > Well I know you do it through magic mushroom... but hey, that doesn't
> Sounds like you are conceding my point though.
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