On May 31, 12:26 pm, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2012/5/31 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
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> > On May 31, 1:54 am, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 2012/5/31 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
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> > > > On May 30, 6:09 pm, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > > > > > You are defining a 'real computer' in terms in terms that you are
> > > > > > smuggling in from our real world of physics. In a Church-Turing
> > > > > > Matrix, why would there be any kind of arbitrary level separation?
> > The
> > > > > > whole point is that there is no fundamental difference between one
> > > > > > Turing emulation and another. Paris is a program.
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> > > > > A program is running on a machine... a program interact through
> > interface
> > > > > and that's the **only** way to interact.
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> > > > Huh? A program interacts with another program directly.
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> > > Yes ? Give me an example, the most basic interface is shared memory (and
> > > eventually, any shared thing is done via memory access)... So give me a
> > > program that can talk/share thing with another program without any
> > > interface between them...
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> > You brought in the term interface specifically to talk about the
> > necessity to intentionally bridge two separate layers of reality. To
> > use a computer, I need a KVM or touchscreen or whatever, an interface
> > that samples the behavior of physical matter and maps it to
> > microelectronic settings. I pointed out that in a truly digitial
> > universe, no such thing would be necessary and nothing would be
> > prevented by the lack of such a thing.
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> > Once something is native digital, it can be integrated with anything
> > else that is digital native - that is sort of the point. It's all
> > virtual. Any formalized virtual interfaces, a KVM in Second Life or
> > The Matrix or whatever, are purely decorative. They are cartoon
> > facades. The actual code doesn't need any kind of graphic
> > representation or digital-to-something-to-digital transduction to pass
> > from one area of memory to another.
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> > > > There is no
> > > > interface. It makes no difference to the OS of the HW node whether the
> > > > program is running virtual Paris on the root level of the physical
> > > > machine or virtual virtual Paris on one of the virtual machines.
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> > > Yes there is a difference, the paris running on a virtual machine has no
> > > direct access (and can't know of it unless an interface exist) on the
> > > physical hardware.
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> > The virtual machine has the same access to the physical hardware as
> > the root level.
>
> That's complete bullshit... If my emulator does not give you access to the
> host hardware it does not...

I'm not talking about the user having access to the host hardware, I'm
talking about the virtual machine: the software. It is using the host
machines's memory and CPUs, is it not?

> The point is that the program running on the
> emulator *****HAS NO WAY***** to know it does not run on physical hardware
> if no interface is present to give it access to it.

No program has any way of knowing whether it is running on physical
hardware or not, even if it has an interface. Whether the program is
running on an emulator or not makes no difference.

>
> Shared memory ****IS**** an interface. But anyway, I leave this discussion
> here, can't cure your stupidity.

Despite your ad hominem retort, there is no basis for it if you
understand the points I am making. It is your understanding that is a
little fuzzy. I am an MCSE and CCEA btw, and I have been configuring
and managing hundreds of RDP, Citrix, and virtual servers every day
for over 13 years. I can assure you that you can break an entire
hardware node by doing something on one container. Virtual is a
relative term, it is not literal. The virtual machines are all really
the same physical computer.

Craig

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