On May 31, 6:14 pm, RMahoney <rmaho...@poteau.com> wrote: > Following the last couple of weeks of exchange between Craig and John > Clark... > > Interesting. > > I would say John has the edge. > > And I have some comments... > > Does a Free Willer believe they willed themselves into existence in > this Universe?
Some might, but I don't. > > They seem to think this free will has some ability to manipulate the > Universe in ways that avoid it's laws. Free will is one of the laws of the universe. We are made of the universe, therefore whatever we do or can do is inherently a potential of the universe. > > I don't believe I willed myself into existence. I cannot will myself > to avoid the end of my existence. While I'm here I cannot break any of > the laws of the Universe. You don't break the laws, you make new laws. The law of the universe was once 'human beings cannot fly'. > We are all molecular machines. Then molecular machines are also us and molecules are telepathic. > Those > molecules operate within the laws of the Universe. We wouldn't know. We only experience molecules indirectly through our instrument-extended perception. What we see of molecules is even less than what an alien astronomer would see looking at the grey patches of human mold growing on the land surfaces of the Earth. > The result of their > action allows me to think and reason and decide on a course of action, > execute a will so to speak, but that will is determined by the > sequence of events of the molecules that make up my self. If I move my arm, I directly move it. I don't even need to cognitively 'decide' to move it, I just move the whole arm all at once from my point of view on my native scale of perception. That there are molecules, cells and tissues which make up my brain and body is a fact of a different layer, a different perceptual inertial frame where "I" don't exist at all. The fact remains though, that I can move my arm at will, and whatever molecular processes need to happen to fulfill my intention will be compelled to happen. That's why there is a difference between voluntary muscles and involuntary muscles. Some I control, some I don't, some control me. > To say "free > will" implies that I somehow avoided the laws of the Universe and > resulting cause and effect. "Free" from the laws of the Universe. No, just free from automatism. If you look at the patterns of low level inorganic matter and distill the most simplistic mathematical patterns within that, and then consider them the only 'laws of the Universe' then you succumb to the cognitive bias of mechanemorphism. The laws of inorganic matter cannot be applied to meaning and awareness. > In > that sense, there is no such thing as "free will", only "will", that > is determined by your physical being and sequence of molecular action. Where would sequences of molecular action get a sense of 'will' from? It doesn't make sense. > > Now I myself believe that probably the laws of the Universe allow it > to be non-deterministic. My logic might be simple on this, but if > there were no randomness at all, there could be no evolution of the > Universe (and probably the laws of the Universe) to become the > Universe we observe today. I think if we started (over and over again) > with the same initial condition of this moment, that the next moment > could be any number of potential outcomes, all within the same laws of > the same Universe. The Universe is built upon the laws of probability, What are the laws of probability built on? > and at the short term macro level things can be fairly predictable, > but at the micro level and over long periods of time, things are not > so predictable, due to random events at the quantum level. I also > subscribe to the idea that all possible outcomes exist simultaneously > and forever, as do all possible histories. If it is possible for it to > exist, it exists, and always can exist. Else it would be impossible, > and not exist. I doubt anything like this could ever be proven, but it > makes logical sense to me. > > But I do not see that this non-deterministic quality of the Universe > in any way creates a free will. It just makes the Universe really > infinite in possibilities. Will cannot be executed without cause. Even > if the result of that process of executing a will was at some point > affected by a random quantum event. What you have written here...were you a helpless spectator to the event of it being written deterministically or was it random? Why do you have any more awareness of it than you have of peristalsis or your hair growing? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.