> > Does a Free Willer believe they willed themselves into existence in
> > this Universe?
> Some can believe that. Open question in comp. Actually "this universe"
> is a quite vague concept with comp.
Don't know comp. As far as I'm concerned, universe can be everything,
I don't believe there is a mind separate from body. You don't have a
mind (or a soul,
or whatever metaphysical description of consciousness one might
subscribe to) until
you have the matter and energy arranged to form the mind. I know
matter is a mental
concept but yeah, whatever makes up the calculation of that stuff we
matter and energy. When that comes together, you have a mind, and at
that mind develops a will, but not the other way around.
> > They seem to think this free will has some ability to manipulate the
> > Universe in ways that avoid it's laws.
> Not the compatibilist one. I think free will is not prevented at all
> by determinism.
I agree, will (free has no meaning to me) is enabled by determinism.
If there were no
process of cause/effect then there could be no calculation of will.
> > I don't believe I willed myself into existence. I cannot will myself
> > to avoid the end of my existence.
> If that exists. Again "my existence" is quite a vague notion.
Basically I'm saying existence is needed before a will can exist, not
the other way around.
You have to build the computer before you can execute a program, not
the other way around.
> > While I'm here I cannot break any of
> > the laws of the Universe. We are all molecular machines.
> Locally, that is very plausible, but near death, this is no more
> assured unless you introduce actual infinities in bith matter and
> mind, and some link between. We are not bodies, we own bodies.
> Molecules are clothes, and actually they are map of our most probable
> computations in arithmetic. This is a consequence of the idea that "we
> are machines". It makes materialism wrong eventually. Matter is a mind
We are the program which does not exist without the machine
> > Those
> > molecules operate within the laws of the Universe.
> If that exists. Locally, it is true, but not globally.
Locally and currently, yes, I understand.
> > The result of their
> > action allows me to think and reason and decide on a course of action,
> > execute a will so to speak, but that will is determined by the
> > sequence of events of the molecules that make up my self. To say "free
> > will" implies that I somehow avoided the laws of the Universe and
> > resulting cause and effect. "Free" from the laws of the Universe. In
> > that sense, there is no such thing as "free will", only "will", that
> > is determined by your physical being and sequence of molecular action.
> OK. Locally.
> > Now I myself believe that probably the laws of the Universe allow it
> > to be non-deterministic. My logic might be simple on this, but if
> > there were no randomness at all, there could be no evolution of the
> > Universe (and probably the laws of the Universe) to become the
> > Universe we observe today. I think if we started (over and over again)
> > with the same initial condition of this moment, that the next moment
> > could be any number of potential outcomes, all within the same laws of
> > the same Universe. The Universe is built upon the laws of probability,
> > and at the short term macro level things can be fairly predictable,
> > but at the micro level and over long periods of time, things are not
> > so predictable, due to random events at the quantum level. I also
> > subscribe to the idea that all possible outcomes exist simultaneously
> > and forever, as do all possible histories.
> OK. But with different probabilities, and we can manage them from
Yes I understand. We can manage to an extent. There are probable
of our attempts at managing. If restarted with all same initial
same attempt at managing the probable outcome may result in a
outcome. (Many with equal probability, some not so probable). At any
in time I think multiple outcomes emerge in the next instant, each
just as real
to the observer/manager. Or should I say observers/managers, as there
multiple of these for each multiple outcome.
> A good thing to avoid sending to a gibberish message.
I didn't catch the intent of this statement. Maybe I did.
Snipped the rest as we seem to agree on the rest.
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