On Jun 1, 1:31 pm, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 31, 6:14 pm, RMahoney <rmaho...@poteau.com> wrote:

> > They seem to think this free will has some ability to manipulate the
> > Universe in ways that avoid it's laws.
> Free will is one of the laws of the universe. We are made of the
> universe, therefore whatever we do or can do is inherently a potential
> of the universe.
Free will is not a basic law or building block of the universe. The
sense of
free will is a result of the process of the universe.

> > I don't believe I willed myself into existence. I cannot will myself
> > to avoid the end of my existence. While I'm here I cannot break any of
> > the laws of the Universe.
> You don't break the laws, you make new laws. The law of the universe
> was once 'human beings cannot fly'.

Laws of the universe I'm referring to are the real laws, not human's
at defining them. Human beings cannot fly is a human thought, not a

> > We are all molecular machines.
> Then molecular machines are also us and molecules are telepathic.

Systems of molecules and energy can transmit information across
distances, so?

> > Those
> > molecules operate within the laws of the Universe.
> We wouldn't know. We only experience molecules indirectly through our
> instrument-extended perception. What we see of molecules is even less
> than what an alien astronomer would see looking at the grey patches of
> human mold growing on the land surfaces of the Earth.
> > The result of their
> > action allows me to think and reason and decide on a course of action,
> > execute a will so to speak, but that will is determined by the
> > sequence of events of the molecules that make up my self.
> If I move my arm, I directly move it. I don't even need to cognitively
> 'decide' to move it, I just move the whole arm all at once from my
> point of view on my native scale of perception. That there are
> molecules, cells and tissues which make up my brain and body is a fact
> of a different layer, a different perceptual inertial frame where "I"
> don't exist at all. The fact remains though, that I can move my arm at
> will, and whatever molecular processes need to happen to fulfill my
> intention will be compelled to happen. That's why there is a
> difference between voluntary muscles and involuntary muscles. Some I
> control, some I don't, some control me.

There is the molecular process that occurs when you command movement,
but there is also the molecular and electrical process that occurs to
develop that
command. It doesn't happen out of "thin air".

> > To say "free
> > will" implies that I somehow avoided the laws of the Universe and
> > resulting cause and effect. "Free" from the laws of the Universe.
> No, just free from automatism. If you look at the patterns of low
> level inorganic matter and distill the most simplistic mathematical
> patterns within that, and then consider them the only 'laws of the
> Universe' then you succumb to the cognitive bias of mechanemorphism.
> The laws of inorganic matter cannot be applied to meaning and
> awareness.

There is no such thing as magic.

A computer program can become self aware,
and obtain the sense of a free will.

> > In
> > that sense, there is no such thing as "free will", only "will", that
> > is determined by your physical being and sequence of molecular action.
> Where would sequences of molecular action get a sense of 'will' from?
> It doesn't make sense.

The molecular and electrical action creates a closed loop system of
and observation of it's action, and resulting adjustment of it's
action. It is a
program with a broad matrix of inputs and outputs.
That matrix of senses is consciousness. Molecular action doesn't get a
of "will", it creates a sense of will. Therefore, it does, make,

> > Now I myself believe that probably the laws of the Universe allow it
> > to be non-deterministic. My logic might be simple on this, but if
> > there were no randomness at all, there could be no evolution of the
> > Universe (and probably the laws of the Universe) to become the
> > Universe we observe today. I think if we started (over and over again)
> > with the same initial condition of this moment, that the next moment
> > could be any number of potential outcomes, all within the same laws of
> > the same Universe. The Universe is built upon the laws of probability,
> What are the laws of probability built on?

Mathematics. Quanta.

> > and at the short term macro level things can be fairly predictable,
> > but at the micro level and over long periods of time, things are not
> > so predictable, due to random events at the quantum level. I also
> > subscribe to the idea that all possible outcomes exist simultaneously
> > and forever, as do all possible histories. If it is possible for it to
> > exist, it exists, and always can exist. Else it would be impossible,
> > and not exist. I doubt anything like this could ever be proven, but it
> > makes logical sense to me.
> > But I do not see that this non-deterministic quality of the Universe
> > in any way creates a free will. It just makes the Universe really
> > infinite in possibilities. Will cannot be executed without cause. Even
> > if the result of that process of executing a will was at some point
> > affected by a random quantum event.
> What you have written here...were you a helpless spectator to the
> event of it being written deterministically or was it random? Why do
> you have any more awareness of it than you have of peristalsis or your
> hair growing?

I was a spectator (or observer) yes, I was not helpless. The
development of my
brain shaped by my past experiences has created an internal program,
along with present input determined what I ultimately wrote, and too
what I am
currently writing. I am the product of all past events and I can fly,
I can feel
the freedom of flight, but I cannot cheat gravity. I can only use
gravity to my
advantage, and soar to the clouds. It has all been determined by the
which makes it possible. Evolution determined that my consciousness
no need to be aware of my hair growing, other than to notice when I
a hair cut. :-)

- Roy

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