Hi Bruno Marchal 

BRUNO:  This "musical score", does it require work of some kind to be created 
itself? 

ROGER:  A Turing Machine (tapes with holes in them) would not be able to see 
the future,
only intuition and other abilities might do that.  So it could not create 
itself.

BRUNO:  I argue that the Pre-Established Harmony (PEH) requires solving an 
NP-Complete computational problem that has an infinite number of variables. 
Additionally, it is not possible to maximize or optimize more than one variable 
in a multivariate system. Unless we are going to grant God the ability to 
contradict mathematical facts, which, I argue, is equivalent to granting 
violations of the basis rules of non-contradiction, then God would have to run 
an eternal computation prior to the creation of the Universe. This is absurd! 
How can the existence of something have a beginning if it requires an an 
infinite problem to be solved first?
Here is the problem: Computations require resources to run, 


That makes sense, but you should define what you mean by resources, as put in 
this way, people might think you mean "primitively physical resource".






and if resources are not available then there is no way to claim access to the 
information that would be in the solution that the computation would generate. 
WE might try to get around this problem the way that Bruno does by stipulating 
that the "truth" of the solution gives it existence, but the fact that some 
mathematical statement or sigma_1 sentence is true (in the prior sense) does 
not allow it to be considered as accessible for use for other things. For 
example, we could make valid claims about the content of a meteor that no one 
has examined but we cannot have any certainty about those claims unless we 
actually crack open the rock and physically examine its contents. 
The state of the universe as "moving harmoniously together" was not exactly 
what the PEH was for Leibniz. It was the synchronization of the simple actions 
of the Monads. It was a coordination of the percepts that make up the monads 
such that, for example, my monadic percept of living in a world that you also 
live in is synchronized with your monadic view of living in a world that I also 
live in such that we can be said to have this email chat. Remember, Monads (as 
defined in the Monadology) have no windows and cannot be considered to either 
"exchange" substances nor are embedded in a common medium that can exchange 
excitations. The entire "common world of appearances" emerges from and could be 
said to supervene upon the synchronization of internal (1p subjective) Monadic 
actions.

I argue that the only way that God could find a solution to the NP-Complete 
problem is to make the creation of the universe simulataneous with the 
computations so that the universe itself is the computer that is finding the 
solution. <snip>




Even some non universal machine can solve NP-complete problem. 


ROGER:  Your idea of incremental creation could possibly work, not sure.

But at least to my mind, the universe has to be a miracle from a physics 
(deterministic) point of view. No first physical cause. But that overlooks
intelligence, which to my mind is nonphysical.

To me, life is also a mirtacle as was painting the Mona Lisa. 

Roger , rclo...@verizon.net
8/14/2012 
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-13, 09:19:40
Subject: Re: pre-established harmony




On 12 Aug 2012, at 20:05, Stephen P. King wrote:


Hi Roger,

    I will interleave some remarks.

On 8/11/2012 7:37 AM, Roger wrote:

Hi Stephen P. King 

As I understand it, Leibniz's pre-established harmony is analogous to
a musical score with God, or at least some super-intelligence, as 
composer/conductor.

    Allow me to use the analogy a bit more but carefully to not go too far. 
This "musical score", does it require work of some kind to be created itself? 



This prevents all physical particles from colliding, instead they
all move harmoniously together*. The score was composed before the
Big Bang-- my own explanation is like Mozart God or that intelligence
could hear the whole (symphony) beforehand in his head.

    I argue that the Pre-Established Harmony (PEH) requires solving an 
NP-Complete computational problem that has an infinite number of variables. 
Additionally, it is not possible to maximize or optimize more than one variable 
in a multivariate system. Unless we are going to grant God the ability to 
contradict mathematical facts, which, I argue, is equivalent to granting 
violations of the basis rules of non-contradiction, then God would have to run 
an eternal computation prior to the creation of the Universe. This is absurd! 
How can the existence of something have a beginning if it requires an an 
infinite problem to be solved first?
    Here is the problem: Computations require resources to run, 


That makes sense, but you should define what you mean by resources, as put in 
this way, people might think you mean "primitively physical resource".






and if resources are not available then there is no way to claim access to the 
information that would be in the solution that the computation would generate. 
WE might try to get around this problem the way that Bruno does by stipulating 
that the "truth" of the solution gives it existence, but the fact that some 
mathematical statement or sigma_1 sentence is true (in the prior sense) does 
not allow it to be considered as accessible for use for other things. For 
example, we could make valid claims about the content of a meteor that no one 
has examined but we cannot have any certainty about those claims unless we 
actually crack open the rock and physically examine its contents. 
    The state of the universe as "moving harmoniously together" was not exactly 
what the PEH was for Leibniz. It was the synchronization of the simple actions 
of the Monads. It was a coordination of the percepts that make up the monads 
such that, for example, my monadic percept of living in a world that you also 
live in is synchronized with your monadic view of living in a world that I also 
live in such that we can be said to have this email chat. Remember, Monads (as 
defined in the Monadology) have no windows and cannot be considered to either 
"exchange" substances nor are embedded in a common medium that can exchange 
excitations. The entire "common world of appearances" emerges from and could be 
said to supervene upon the synchronization of internal (1p subjective) Monadic 
actions.

    I argue that the only way that God could find a solution to the NP-Complete 
problem is to make the creation of the universe simulataneous with the 
computations so that the universe itself is the computer that is finding the 
solution.   <snip>




Even some non universal machine can solve NP-complete problem. 


Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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