On 8/21/2012 7:38 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
To Idealists, the "real" is the idea or concept of a thing,
The thing as it it appears to us is a phenomenon.
This inversion of common sense was made by Leibniz
in order to get rid of the mind-body problem. There's
no problem really if both are just concepts. They don't
actually interact, but they can be conceived as interacting.

HI Roger,

YES! The details of the "conceived as interacting" and the conception is true is the same as Bruno's Bp&p, but without the accidentalism.

There is a tricky point, and is I think a principal reason why L can
be so confusing---- and critics have observed that even Leibniz can
sometimes confuse the real with the phenomenal.


1) First of all, Idealists such as Leibniz. Berkeley and Kant consider
IDEAS to be real, not the material or other phenomena they describe.
For these guys, the descriptions are real, not the things or phenomena they describe,
which admittedly are transitory.

This is a mistake. They are ignoring the role of the physical. Even if the physical is a collective conception of the monads, this does not take anything away from its "reality". It merely takes away the ontological primitivity.

Which is NOT to say that to Leibniz, the world out there is a hallucination.
No, it is just like it looks and he calls the world we see,
although phenomenal, "well-founded phenomena".
You can still stub your toe and feel pain, billiard balls will all collide as
usual, etc. To all purposes, everything will seem normal.


2) The monads can only see the external world through the eyes of the supreme monad
(or CPU).

Yes, but they forget that they are the Supreme monad. This is the true meaning of the doctrine of "fall from Grace".

This is not direct sight, for one thing monads afre not spaced in space or time
(perhaps heaven is like this ?).


They don't really see the outside world,
they only see an infinite number of of mirrors, those being reflections of the
monad in question from the [points of view of the other monads.


 in the mirrors or "perceptions" of


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net>
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function."

    ----- Receiving the following content -----
    *From:* Stephen P. King <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>
    *Receiver:* everything-list <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
    *Time:* 2012-08-21, 06:53:59
    *Subject:* Re: A Platonic world of strings,monads or
    consciousness. How are they interrelated ?


        There is one thing that needs to be considered: Given that
    monads have no windows, does it not follow that there is no "real"
    outside of them? All appearances of an external world (to a monad)
    is wholly contained within it. An external embedding manifold is
    unnecessary and even superfluous.




"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."
~ Francis Bacon

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