meekerdb wrote: > > On 8/21/2012 3:26 PM, benjayk wrote: >> >> meekerdb wrote: >>> On 8/21/2012 2:52 PM, benjayk wrote: >>>> meekerdb wrote: >>>>> On 8/21/2012 2:24 PM, benjayk wrote: >>>>>> meekerdb wrote: >>>>>>> "This sentence cannot be confirmed to be true by a human being." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Computer >>>>>>> >>>>>> He might be right in saying that (See my response to Saibal). >>>>>> But it can't confirm it as well (how could it, since we as humans >>>>>> can't >>>>>> confirm it and what he knows about us derives from what we program >>>>>> into >>>>>> it?). So still, it is less capable than a human. >>>>> I know it by simple logic - in which I have observed humans to be >>>>> relatively slow and >>>>> error prone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> regards, The Computer >>>>> >>>> Well, that is you imagining to be a computer. But program an actual >>>> computer that concludes this without it being hard-coded into it. All >>>> it >>>> could do is repeat the opinion you feed it, or disagree with you, >>>> depending >>>> on how you program it. >>>> >>>> There is nothing computational that suggest that the statement is true >>>> or >>>> false. Or if it you believe it is, please attempt to show how. >>>> >>>> In fact there is a better formulation of the problem: 'The truth-value >>>> of >>>> this statement is not computable.'. >>>> It is true, but this can't be computed, so obviously no computer can >>>> reach >>>> this conclusion without it being fed to it via input (which is >>>> something >>>> external to the computer). Yet we can see that it is true. >>> Not really. You're equivocating on "computable" as "what can be >>> computed" >>> and "what a >>> computer does". You're supposing that a computer cannot have the >>> reflexive inference >>> capability to "see" that the statement is true. >> No, I don't supppose that it does. It results from the fact that we get a >> contradiction if the computer could see that the statement is true (since >> it >> had to compute it, which is all it can do). >> >> >> meekerdb wrote: >>> Yet you're also supposing that when we >>> "see" it is true that that is not a computation. >> No. It can't be a computation, since if it were a computation we couldn't >> conclude it is true (as this would be a contradiction, as I showed >> above). > > You avoid the contradiction by saying, "What *I'm* doing is not > computation." which you > can say because you don't know what you're doing - you're just "seeing" > it's true. If you > knew what you were doing you would know you were computing too and you'd > be in the same > contradiction that you suppose the computer is in because computing "is > all it can do." > You're implicitly *assuming* you can do something that is not computing to > avoid the > contradiction and thereby prove you can do something beyond computing - > see the circularity > Not really. The fact that I can see its true proves that I can't be only doing computation, because by only doing computation (and only allowing binary logic as the answer) we could never arrive at the fact that the sentence is true. A computer would derive that it is false, and thus it is true and thus it is false,... Or it would derive that it is true and thus that its answer must be wrong (because its own way of arriving there contradicts the sentence), so it must be false after all, etc... But it would never arrive at the fact that the statement it is clearly true. Yet I see that it is clearly true, since a computer could never unambigously see its true (as the last paragraph shows). We could only hardcode the statement into the computer, but then it just states it and doesn't confirm it by itself. You could say that I am beyond the level of the computer and thus can see something about the computer that the computer can't. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34333746.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

- Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transc... Stathis Papaioannou

- Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that... meekerdb
- Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends... Bruno Marchal
- Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transc... meekerdb
- Re: Simple proof that our intelligence tr... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our intelligenc... meekerdb
- Re: Simple proof that our intell... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our in... meekerdb
- Re: Simple proof that our in... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our in... Bruno Marchal
- Re: Simple proof that our in... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our in... Bruno Marchal
- Re: Simple proof that our in... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our in... Jason Resch
- Re: Simple proof that our in... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our in... Jason Resch
- Re: Simple proof that our in... benjayk
- Re: Simple proof that our in... Jason Resch
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