On Friday, August 31, 2012 9:14:20 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
>  Right, but that's what communism asks you to do in effect. 
> Marx never used the word saintly or giving your life to the Cause,
> but that emphasis on others rather than self no doubt
> prompted Ayn Rand's (she was russian, presumably a victim of
> oppressive communist rule) reactionary paean to the virtues of self-esteen
> and selfishness.
>

Ayn Rand was the daughter of the owner of a successful pharmacy who had his 
business confiscated by the Bolsheviks when she was 12. It doesn't take too 
much to see how that would traumatize anyone, especially someone in her 
social position (not to stereotype her as a Jewish Russian Princess, but 
given her sense of pride later in life, I would not guess that she would be 
any less so as privileged teenager in cosmopolitan St. Petersberg). I think 
her animus toward communism was more personally driven by the loss of her 
expected life at the hands of low class peasants than anything else. Of 
course, I could be projecting - I don't know much about Rand except for 
reading Atlas Shrugged. I liked the idea of John Galt and all of that. I 
didn't realize at the time the implications or what was behind her views.

Craig

 
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <javascript:> 
> Hi Craig Weinberg 
>  8/31/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Craig Weinberg <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-08-31, 09:03:05
> *Subject:* Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power
>
>  
> On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:55:08 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
>>
>>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>>  
>> It's a non-brainer.
>>  
>> The Marxist model of man and his government as being saintly and always
>> thinking of the good of the whole flies in the face of reality. Here 
>> in the real world, man goes out each day in his basic search for money, 
>> sex, and power.
>>
>
> Maybe you are more familiar with Marx than I am, but my impression was 
> that his view was not about men being saintly at all. To the contrary, it 
> seems to be all about permanent class struggle and materialism - "means of 
> production" and all that. He was all about the real world search for money, 
> sex, and power. What Marx said about Capitalism may not have been wrong at 
> all, but what he proposed as a solution didn't seem to be a lasting 
> solution. It isn't often that ideas get half of the world to overthrow 
> their leaders, so I would guess that they must have some pretty compelling 
> reasoning to them and not Pollyanna tropes about man being saintly.
>
> Craig
>
>  
>
>>   
>>  
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 8/31/2012 
>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
>> so that everything could function."
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>> *From:* Craig Weinberg 
>> *Receiver:* everything-list 
>> *Time:* 2012-08-31, 08:28:11
>> *Subject:* Re: No Chinese Room Necessary
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: 
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 8/30/2012 6:35 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:16:14 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King 
>>>>> wrote: 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Umm, ever hear of the concept of "Heaven"? It sounds very much 
>>>>>> like a "a future society with a perfect anything or that morals were 
>>>>>> unnecessary".
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, but when does the Left Wing ever talk about Heaven?
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Umm, the Marxists have an analogue... " 
>>>>> classless<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_society>, 
>>>>> moneyless, and stateless<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society>
>>>>>  social order <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_order> 
>>>>> structured<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure>
>>>>>  upon common ownership <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership>
>>>>>  of the means of 
>>>>> production<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production>, 
>>>>> as well as a social <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social>, 
>>>>> political<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political>
>>>>>  and econom**ic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy> ideology that 
>>>>> aims at the establishment of this social order".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When does the Left Wing ever talk about Marxism? Does Dennis Kucinich 
>>>> talk about a stateless social order? Even self described socialists like 
>>>> Bernie Sanders or activists like Michael Moore don't say "we must get rid 
>>>> of money and class!". All I have ever heard from progressives is "We 
>>>> should 
>>>> pay teachers more and useless businessmen less." and "We should stop 
>>>> paying 
>>>> private contractors so much to imprison more and more people on 
>>>> meaningless 
>>>> drug charges". I have hung out with many anarchists, feminists, hippies, 
>>>> and rabid left wing ideologues socially throughout my life and have never 
>>>> - 
>>>> ever - heard anyone mention communism or Marxism in any kind of political 
>>>> context at all. Most of what I know about Marxism has come from 
>>>> Libertarians and Republicans holding up its ghost in effigy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well you're not living in the right country then... And an anarchist who 
>>> would not talk about about a classless goal... well cannot be an 
>>> "anarchist" which means "without hierarchy/authority" not without rules, 
>>> that is anomie.
>>>
>>
>> What does where I live have to do with anything? Are you saying that only 
>> people who want to see the US paved over and sold to WalMart are real 
>> Americans? When I say that people I have known are anarchists I mean that 
>> they have anarchic sympathies - not that they advocate a permanent 
>> realization of total anarchy. 
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>  
>>> Quentin
>>>  
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  -- 
>>>>> Onward!
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen
>>>>> http://webpages.charter.net/**stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html 
>>>>> <http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
>>>
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