On 10 Sep 2012, at 06:28, Russell Standish wrote:

On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote:
Dear Bruno,

Could you explain a bit more what the experience of "being
conscious in a completely atemporal mode" was like? Where you aware
of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal
narrative (of external events) silent?

I have always suspected that "subjective time might be a result
of self-consciousness" but have not had any way of discussing the
idea coherently. If we stipulate that "subjective time" is a form of
noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in
one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of
self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at
least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with
Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite

Your proposition is basically what my TIME postulate is all
about. What Bruno is suggesting is that the smoking of certain plants
induces a conscious state that contradicts TIME. I'm not prepared at
this stage to follow in his footsteps, so have to simply take his
observations (and of others in the Salvia forum) on face value. I do not
know how TIME may be modified to reconcile it with this observation,
yet remain in place for the deduction of quantum mechanics.

OK. But with comp, such a time might be either the steps of the UD in arithmetic, or anything implied from the 0, 1, 2, 3, ... static ordering. This is similar to the "block" idea in physics, except that it is a block mindscape instaed of a block physical-universe.
Such structure are infinite and third person describable.

But the going out of time in the salvia reports are first person apprehension of no time, and that is admittedly very weird, even for an hallucination. It might even contradict comp.

This wouldn't contradict TIME, which only says that percieved
psychological time should be a "timescale" (a mathematical
term). Discrete time, such as that reported by LM above is still a
valid timescale.

Yes, that is the reason why we don't need more that the order on the natural number, defined by
x < y iff Ez(x+z = y).

Of course, the going out of time does not play any role, in what is derived from comp. Just a data, which might one day lead to a refutation of comp, unless we find a way to make sense of it. It needs perhaps, as I am suggesting since recently the fact that consciousness can apply to the universal non Löbian machine, in a highly disconnected way.

The experience "out of time" might be a generalization of the LM case, but it is hard to know, as when you are there, nothing is static, as static still refer to time.



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