Hi Bruno Marchal 

It is ironic that Obama followed Bush policy economically (more spending)
and also much like Bush in warfare, although a bit more timidly.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-10, 10:55:34
Subject: Re: The sin of NDAA




On 09 Sep 2012, at 13:08, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal 

My feeling at the moment is to compare the sin of NDAA with
that of collateral damage, and war itself, and fall back on the
doctrine of just warfare.


I would have still be open to that idea one year ago. But Obama did not kept 
his promise to decriminalize pot, to not let the feds interfere with the state 
on this, to at least try to refrain the war on drug, and to finish the war on 
terror.


Not only Obama did not do that, but he has tried, through the NDAA, to make 
into an indefinite law what Bush succeeds to justify as warfare.


I could have thought it was just a typo mistake, but Obama's administration has 
refuse any change to the language in the NDAA(*).


So, it looks to me more as the events leading to the third reich in Germany, 
where the worst get power through democracy.


Obama has convinced me in one night that the war on terror is as fake as the 
war on drugs. Now I think it is just the usual fear selling business, and they 
are planning the catastrophes selling. 


Although I have mocked the idea that 9/11 is an inside job, despite building 
seven, I dod not expect Obama signing a text which contains the usual dictator 
trick, which consists in abandoning the human right for a fuzzy category of the 
population, and allowing the military to overturn the laws and the 
constitution, and this after the war.


That is not the "sin of collateral damage", that is the sin of terrorism, 
simply. Obama could have said more simply that the terrorist have won. 
Al Qaeda looks more and more like a CIA construct, as frightening that might 
seem.


The human right have to be applied to every one, or they are no more human 
rights. If suspects of whatever have no more rights, you are no more living in 
a democracy but in a tyranny.


If the media were able to do their job, Obama would already be detained in a 
jail for attempt of coup d'etat. 


I have supported him, but I do think now that both the republicans and 
democrats have just zero power, and are the puppets of international mafia. 5 
years of alcohol prohibition has given Al Capone, and I'm afraid we are seeing 
the result of 75 years of prohibition of cannabis. It was a Trojan Horse for 
the international criminality and terrorism. 


I am less terrorized by bombs than by laws allowing detention without trial for 
people being only suspected. 


If you abandon an atom of liberty for an atom of security, you lose both.


Bruno






Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/9/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-08, 14:16:31
Subject: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?


On 08 Sep 2012, at 15:33, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> OK, I see, you think I judge the abilities of people
> by the color of their skin. So you call me a racist.


I was thinking only you might judge someone by the constitution of its 
body.

You don't answer the question: "can your daughter marry a man which 
body is 100% machine?"


>
> You might be a liberal, because ironically and
> paradoxically they see the world in terms of race.
> Conservatives attempt to live by facts. I never
> saw racism in what what I wrote until you brought
> the subject up.
>
> I don't mean to offend you with this talk of politics.
> Conservatives are not perfect either.

Sure. I tend to be rather conservative, in principle.

I think that today the liberal/conservative division makes no sense. 
The division is more bastards/ victim of bastards, like Romney and 
Obama against Ron Paul, Gary Johnson or Norman Solomon, or those who 
understand that the human rights apply to everybody and those who does 
not, or between the fear sellers and the constitutionalists.

The republicans betrayed themselves by not attacking Obama on the NDAA 
notes. Thanks to the existence of a many years long drug and food 
prohibition I am hardly astonished.

As long as prohibition continue, there are no politics, only well- 
disguised form of mafias, which are succeeding to get the whole 
financial system into hostage. The individual human is in danger.

Bruno

>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 9/8/2012
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
> so that everything could function."
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-09-08, 04:46:38
> Subject: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?
>
>
>
>
> On 07 Sep 2012, at 15:00, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> Racism ? How's that implied ?
>
>
> Do you accept that your daughter marry a man who has undergone an 
> artificial brain transplant?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But I do agree that perception and Cs are
> not understandable with materialistic concepts
> at least as they are commonly used.
> Instead they are what the mind can sense,
>
>
> OK.
>
>
>
>
> as a sixth sense.
>
>
> Hmm...
>
>
>
>
>
> The mind is similar to driving a car through
> Platoville and watching the static events
> in passing.
>
>
> OK.
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 9/7/2012
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
> so that everything could function."
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-09-06, 14:12:37
> Subject: Re: Sane2004 Step One
>
>
>
>
> On 05 Sep 2012, at 18:12, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>
>
> I don't think that life or mind or intelligence
> can be teleported. Especially since nobody knows what
> they are.
>
> I also don't believe that you can download
> the contents of somebody's brain.
>
>
>
>
> This is just restating that you don't believe in comp.
>
>
> OK, develop your theory, and predict something testable, and we will 
> better understand what you mean.
> If not it looks just like a form of racism based on magic.
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 9/5/2012
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
> so that everything could function."
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-09-05, 11:04:53
> Subject: Re: Sane2004 Step One
>
>
> On 05 Sep 2012, at 06:14, meekerdb wrote:
>
>> On 9/4/2012 7:19 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
>>> On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>>> I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions:
>>>>
>>>> *yes, doctor*: This is really the sleight of hand that props up
>>>> the entire
>>>> thought experiment. If you agree that you are nothing but your 
>>>> brain
>>>> function and that your brain function can be replaced by the
>>>> functioning of
>>>> non-brain devices, then you have already agreed that human
>>>> individuality is
>>>> a universal commodity.
>>> Calling it a sleight of hand is a bit rough. It is the meat of the
>>> comp assumption, and spelling it out this way makes it very
>>> explicit. Either you agree you can be copied (without feeling a
>>> thing), or you don't. If you do, you must face up to the 
>>> consequences
>>> of the argument, if you don't, then you do not accept
>>> computationalism, and the consequences of the UDA do not apply to
>>> your
>>> worldview.
>>
>> I suppose I can be copied. But does it follow that I am just the
>> computations in my brain. It seems likely that I also require an
>> outside environment/world with which I interact in order to remain
>> conscious. Bruno passes this off by saying it's just a matter of
>> the level of substitution, perhaps your local environment or even
>> the whole galaxy must be replaced by a digital representation in
>> order to maintain your consciousness unchanged. But this bothers
>> me. Suppose it is the whole galaxy, or the whole observed
>> universe. Does it really mean anything then to say your brain has
>> been replaced ALONG WITH EVERYTHING ELSE? It's just the assertion
>> that everything is computable.
>
> That's a good argument for saying that the level of substitution is
> not that low. But the reasoning would still go through, and we would
> lead to a unique computable universe. That is the only way to make a
> digital physics consistent (as I forget to say sometimes). Then you
> get a more complex "other mind problem", and something like David
> Nyman- Hoyle beam would be needed, and would need to be separate from
> the physical reality, making the big physical whole incomplete, etc.
> yes this bothers me too. Needless to say, I tend to believe that if
> comp is true, the level is much higher.
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>> *Church thesis*: Views computation in isolation, irrespective of
>>>> resources,
>>>> supervenience on object-formed computing elements, etc. This is a
>>>> theoretical theory of computation, completely divorced from
>>>> realism from
>>>> the start. What is it that does the computing? How and why does
>>>> data enter
>>>> or exit a computation?
>>> It is necessarily an abstract mathematical thesis. The latter two
>>> questions simply are relevant.
>>>
>>>> *Arithmetical Realism*: The idea that truth values are self
>>>> justifying
>>>> independently of subjectivity or physics is literally a shot in
>>>> the dark.
>>>> Like yes, doctor, this is really swallowing the cow whole from the
>>>> beginning and saying that the internal consistency of arithmetic
>>>> constitutes universal supremacy without any real indication of
>>>> that.
>>> AR is not just about internal consistency of mathematics, it is an
>>> ontological commitment about the natural numbers. Whatever primitive
>>> reality is, AR implies that the primitive reality models the natural
>>> numbers.
>>
>> ISTM that Bruno rejects any reality behind the natural numbers (or
>> other system of computation). If often argues that the natural
>> numbers exist, because they satisfy true propositions: There exists
>> a prime number between 1 and 3, therefore 2 exists. This assumes a
>> Platonist view of mathematical objects, which Peter D. Jones has
>> argued against.
>
> ? I would say that the contrary is true. It is because natural numbers
> exists, and seems to obeys laws like addition and multiplication that
> true propositions can be made on them. 2 exists, and only 1 and 2
> divides 2, so 2 is prime, and thus prime numbers exists. 2 itself
> exists just because Ex(x = s(s(0))) is true. Indeed take x = s(s(0)),
> and the proposition follows from s(s(0)) = s(s(0)).
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>>
>>> In fact, for COMP, and the UDA, Turing completeness of primitive
>>> reality is
>>> sufficient, but Bruno chose the natural numbers as his base reality
>>> because it is more familiar to his correspondents.
>>>
>>>> Wouldn't computers tend to be self-correcting by virtue of the
>>>> pull toward
>>>> arithmetic truth within each logic circuit? Where do errors come
>>>> from?
>>>>
>>> Again, these two questions seem irrelevant.
>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
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>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
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