On Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:36:37 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012  Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net <javascript:>>wrote:
>
>   > I call this the "nothing but" fallacy 
>>
>
> There is indeed a "nothing but" fallacy, such as:
> "a computer can't be conscious because when you look at it at a close 
> enough level you find "nothing but" a bunch of zeros and ones". 
>

There aren't even zeros and ones. That's more of a religious-type metaphor 
for what a computer really is. What is really there is only physical matter 
in states which can be detected and controlled. Everything else is fantasy 
until the results of the computations are manifested in the control of 
physical matter.

Craig
 

>
> > It is the bread and butter of atheists critics of religion.
>>
>
> But atheism is not that fallacy. I will become a believer the instant 
> religion can explain something, anything, that science can not. 
>
> > critics of the near death experience sometimes explain away the near 
>> death experience as due to some chemical that the brain exudes as death 
>> nears. 
>
>
> The trouble with near death experiences is that they are NEAR death. When 
> somebody comes back after being dead and buried for 10 years then I'd be 
> interested in what they have to say.
>
> > if the near death esperience is real I would be surprised if there 
>> WEREN'T a physical correlate.
>
>
> And I would be surprised if lack of oxygen (or the excess of carbon 
> dioxide) in the brain didn't sometimes produce hallucinations; and more 
> common than the tunnel with a light at the end bit is sexual arousal, 
> that's why the dangerous sport of Auto-erotic Asphyxia is so popular in 
> certain quarters.
>

I am almost sympathetic but if you look at what has actually been reported, 
it isn't limited to the subjective experience of the patient. Patients 
report objective knowledge of their surroundings which have been verified. 
I don't take the content of NDEs at face value, but neither do I assume 
that they can be waved away as an unusually consistent theme within 
hallucination.  To me it's clear that the phenomenon of life and death 
transcends subject-object distinction. Why wouldn't it?

Craig


>  John K Clark   
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