Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of
what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I
wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or
not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see
Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work).

Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being
discussed on this list.

Cheers


On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Terren Suydam 
> 
> You needn't agree with me. I respect that.
> 
> It wasn't really a thought process, I
> just couldn't find anything to hold on to,
> something that works, and I am a pragmatist.
> Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling".
> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 10/15/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Terren Suydam 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43
> Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis
> 
> 
> Hi Roger,
> 
> I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject
> autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that
> defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it.
> 
> Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the
> best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there
> is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the
> biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of
> processes, it does not assume the physical.
> 
> At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding 
> autonomy.
> 
> Best,
> Terren
> 
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
> >
> > I agree.
> >
> > I was wrong about autopoesis. It is
> > a mind-boggling definition of life,
> > maybe not even that.
> >
> >
> > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> > 10/15/2012
> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
> >
> >
> > ----- Receiving the following content -----
> > From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy
> > Receiver: everything-list
> > Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19
> > Subject: Re: autopoesis
> >
> >
> > Hi Roger,
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
> >
> >
> > Autopoesis is a useful definition for life.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis
> >
> >
> > Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? 
> > (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means "self-creation" 
> > and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, mechanism and 
> > function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean biologists Humberto
> > Maturana and Francisco Varela:
> >
> > An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a 
> > network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of 
> > components
> > which:
> >
> > (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously regenerate 
> > and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced them; and
> >
> > (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they 
> > (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its 
> > realization as such a network.[1]
> >
> > [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and 
> > cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space.
> > When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, 
> > however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and make a
> > description of this projection.[2]
> >
> >
> >
> > This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack 
> > flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public 
> > discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed".
> >
> > The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of 
> > processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to 
> > "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the 
> > machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) exist 
> > by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a 
> > network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the 
> > discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation".
> >
> > The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes and 
> > dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense.
> >
> > m
> > ?
> >
> > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> > 10/14/2012
> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
> >
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