Hi Russell Standish  

1) It is a cruelty of nature to make the two IMHO most powerful thinkers
(Peirce and Leibniz) to be the two most difficult to understand.
I would not throw them out just yet.

2) If somebody can make something useful out of autopoesis, 
more power to them.  At first, it looked like the solution
to everything, but then I just couldn't find anything to grasp.
With the exception of Peirce, I found semiotics to be similar.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/16/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Russell Standish  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-15, 18:05:59 
Subject: Re: Computational Secondness 1 (formerly Computational Autopoetics 1) 


I'm more than happy for you to explore this, and report back when you 
can explain it in terms other than the Peircean trinity. I never found 
the Peircean classification to shed light or insight into 
anything. YMMV though, of course! 

I'm curious to know why you think autopoetic is misleading. My 
criticism of it was more along the lines that it has never shown 
itself to be useful in practice, not that the concept itself is confused. 

Cheers 

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 09:22:12AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: 
> Hi Russell Standish  
>  
> A self-organizing system is not what I proposed because  
> in such a system it is the output (Thirdness) that organizes  
> itself. And "autopoetics" is also apparently a misleading term.  
> I was seduced by its academic associations.  
>  
> Instead, I see now that what I am proposing is  
> "Computational Secondness." This would be a  
> Peirce-type epistemological machine, where  
>  
> Firstness = the raw input = perception, consciousness  
> Secondness= that which creates order out of the Firstness (the living, 
> intelligent part)  
> Thirdness = the structured or ordered output, which may be alive or not be 
> alive.  
>  
> Intelligence in my machine is pure Secondness.  
>  
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net  
> 10/15/2012  
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  
>  
> ----- Receiving the following content -----  
> From: Russell Standish  
> Receiver: everything-list  
> Time: 2012-10-14, 17:27:50  
> Subject: Re: Computational Autopoetics 1  
>  
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:44:11PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote:  
> > "Computational Autopoetics" is a term I just coined to denote applying 
> > basic concepts  
> > of autopoetics to the field of comp. You mathematicians are free to do it 
> > more justice  
> > than I can. I cannot guarantee that the idea hasn't already been exploited, 
> > but I have  
> > seen no indication of that.  
> >  
> > The idea is this: that we borrow a basic characteristic of autopoetics, 
> > namely that life is  
> > essentially not a thing but the act of creation. This means that we define  
> > life as the creative act of generating structure from some input data. By 
> > this  
> > pramatic definition, it is not necessarily the structure that is produced 
> > that is alive, but  
> > life consists of the act of creating structure from assumedly structureless 
> > input data.  
> > Life is not a creation, but instead is the act of creation.  
> So any self-organised system should be called alive then? Sand dunes,  
> huricanes, stars, galaxies. Hey, we've just found ET!  
> Actually, I was just reading an interview with my old mate Charley  
> Lineweaver in New Scientist, and he was saying the same thing :).  
>  
> >  
> > If life is such a creative act rather than a creation, then it seems to fit 
> > what  
> > I have been postulating as the basic inseparable ingredients of life: 
> > intelligence  
> > and free will.  
> I don't believe intelligence is required for creativity. Biological  
> evolution is undeniably creative.  
> ... Rest deleted, because I cannot follow you there.  
> --  
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)  
> Principal, High Performance Coders  
> Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au  
> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au  
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
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>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net  
> 10/15/2012  
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  
>  
>  
> ----- Receiving the following content -----  
> From: Russell Standish  
> Receiver: everything-list  
> Time: 2012-10-14, 17:27:50  
> Subject: Re: Computational Autopoetics 1  
>  
>  
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 04:44:11PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote:  
> > "Computational Autopoetics" is a term I just coined to denote applying 
> > basic concepts  
> > of autopoetics to the field of comp. You mathematicians are free to do it 
> > more justice  
> > than I can. I cannot guarantee that the idea hasn't already been exploited, 
> > but I have  
> > seen no indication of that.  
> >  
> > The idea is this: that we borrow a basic characteristic of autopoetics, 
> > namely that life is  
> > essentially not a thing but the act of creation. This means that we define  
> > life as the creative act of generating structure from some input data. By 
> > this  
> > pramatic definition, it is not necessarily the structure that is produced 
> > that is alive, but  
> > life consists of the act of creating structure from assumedly structureless 
> > input data.  
> > Life is not a creation, but instead is the act of creation.  
>  
> So any self-organised system should be called alive then? Sand dunes,  
> huricanes, stars, galaxies. Hey, we've just found ET!  
>  
> Actually, I was just reading an interview with my old mate Charley  
> Lineweaver in New Scientist, and he was saying the same thing :).  
>  
>  
> >  
> > If life is such a creative act rather than a creation, then it seems to fit 
> > what  
> > I have been postulating as the basic inseparable ingredients of life: 
> > intelligence  
> > and free will.  
>  
> I don't believe intelligence is required for creativity. Biological  
> evolution is undeniably creative.  
>  
> ... Rest deleted, because I cannot follow you there.  
>  
> --  
>  
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)  
> Principal, High Performance Coders  
> Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au  
> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au  
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
>  
> --  
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Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au 
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
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