TERREN: Hi Roger, 

Autopoeisis says there is a boundary between the environment and the 
system through which no information crosses (structural closure)...

ROGER: OK, it is alive.
 
TERREN: if we apply that model to our nervous system, we can say that the 
reality 
we experience is a construction, a virtual reality dynamically 
generated by the brain as it organizes the signals coming from our 
sense neurons. 

ROGER: OK, the world we see is phenomenal.

TERREN: We see this in the nervous system in the sense that 
nerves are "line-labelled". It doesn't matter how the photoreceptors 
are stimulated - whether by light or pressure, the result is a visual 
quale (as when you rub your eyes hard). Likewise, thermoreceptors 
stimulated by heat or by capsaisin both result in the quale of 
'hotness'. 

ROGER: You know more about this than I do. Sounds reasonable,
except my concept of quale is that they are the raw unprocessed input signals.

TERREN: So to your point that autopoeitic structure only applies to 3p models, 
I agree, but if we accept that consciousness arises from, or is the 
inside-view of, certain 3p structures, then theorizing about those 3p 
structures can yield testable claims about consciousness. 

ROGER: That is the main thrust of the discussion here.
In my view, there is the subjective experience (which I am
trying to understand), and then there is the description of that
experience, I think we call 3p, which I think is what most people  
(and autopoesis (?)) use. I know there are loose ends in my
thought, I'm still trying to clarify it.

Terren 

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 
> Hi Terren Suydam 
> 
> IMHO autopoesis, like all of AI, is a tool for the public, objective world 
> (Thirdness) 
> That is fine, but the real nitty-gritty (such as mind or consciousness) 
> dwells in subjective experiences (quale) (Firstness). So I don't find 
> autopoesis that useful or profound. 
> 
> er Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 10/17/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Terren Suydam 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-10-16, 11:37:05 
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: autopoesis 
> 
> 
> Hi Russell, 
> 
> I think if autopoeisis has failed to achieve some practical measure, 
> it is a reflection of how under-developed our collective toolbox is 
> for working with complexity and holistic systems in general. Imaginary 
> numbers are a good example of an idea whose practical measure didn't 
> emerge until well after its conception. 
> 
> Thanks for the link to Barry McMullin... interesting stuff. 
> 
> Terren 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Russell Standish wrote: 
>> Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of 
>> what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I 
>> wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or 
>> not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see 
>> Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work). 
>> 
>> Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being 
>> discussed on this list. 
>> 
>> Cheers 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: 
>>> Hi Terren Suydam 
>>> 
>>> You needn't agree with me. I respect that. 
>>> 
>>> It wasn't really a thought process, I 
>>> just couldn't find anything to hold on to, 
>>> something that works, and I am a pragmatist. 
>>> Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling". 
>>> 
>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>>> 10/15/2012 
>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>>> From: Terren Suydam 
>>> Receiver: everything-list 
>>> Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43 
>>> Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Roger, 
>>> 
>>> I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject 
>>> autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that 
>>> defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. 
>>> 
>>> Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the 
>>> best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there 
>>> is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the 
>>> biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of 
>>> processes, it does not assume the physical. 
>>> 
>>> At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding 
>>> autonomy. 
>>> 
>>> Best, 
>>> Terren 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 
>>> > Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
>>> > 
>>> > I agree. 
>>> > 
>>> > I was wrong about autopoesis. It is 
>>> > a mind-boggling definition of life, 
>>> > maybe not even that. 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>>> > 10/15/2012 
>>> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>>> > From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
>>> > Receiver: everything-list 
>>> > Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19 
>>> > Subject: Re: autopoesis 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Hi Roger, 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Autopoesis is a useful definition for life. 
>>> > 
>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? 
>>> > (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means 
>>> > "self-creation" and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, 
>>> > mechanism and function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean 
>>> > biologists Humberto 
>>> > Maturana and Francisco Varela: 
>>> > 
>>> > An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a 
>>> > network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of 
>>> > components 
>>> > which: 
>>> > 
>>> > (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously 
>>> > regenerate and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced 
>>> > them; and 
>>> > 
>>> > (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which 
>>> > they (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its 
>>> > realization as such a network.[1] 
>>> > 
>>> > [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and 
>>> > cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space. 
>>> > When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, 
>>> > however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and 
>>> > make a 
>>> > description of this projection.[2] 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack 
>>> > flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public 
>>> > discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed". 
>>> > 
>>> > The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of 
>>> > processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to 
>>> > "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the 
>>> > machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) 
>>> > exist by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a 
>>> > network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the 
>>> > discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation". 
>>> > 
>>> > The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes 
>>> > and dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense. 
>>> > 
>>> > m 
>>> > ? 
>>> > 
>>> > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>>> > 10/14/2012 
>>> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>>> > 
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>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) 
>> Principal, High Performance Coders 
>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au 
>> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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