On 12 Nov 2012, at 20:27, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 11/12/2012 11:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 11 Nov 2012, at 21:16, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 11/10/2012 10:02 PM, meekerdb wrote:
On 11/10/2012 5:44 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 05:14:47PM -0800, meekerdb wrote:
On 11/10/2012 1:31 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
No problem. UDA shows the equivalent propositions:  (MAT is weak
materialism: the doctrine that there is a primitive physical


I keep COMP as a working hypothesis, as I have no clue what really
MAT means or explains, and we don't find a contradiction, just a
weirdness close to quantum Everett.
But more accurately, we have not yet found a contradiction. There
may be a contradiction with empirical observation, but COMP has not
made many definite predictions that could be contradicted. That's
why I brought up the location of consciousness. Empirically
consciousness is associated with a center body (an essential point of the duplication experiment), yet so far as I can see COMP would predict that a consciousness should have no particular location and
not reason to be associated with a particular body.

I think the argument is that association with a body (or brain)
is required for intersubjectivity between minds. It is an
anti-solipsism requirement.

But how does the requirement for intersubjectivity follow from COMP? Is it just an anthropic selection argument?
Hi Brent,

This is what I wish to know and understand as well! AFAIK, comp seems to only define a single conscious mind!


That is contradicted by step 3, which features two different conscious mind, one in Moscow, and the other in M. Then after UDA we know that arithmetic is full of quite different conscious entities, from machines to many Gods and perhaps God. You might confuse individual persons and the abstract Löbian machine common to them.

Dear Bruno,

I am trying to figure out how you differentiate "individual persons" (which seem to be distinguished by their relative locations - such as being in Moscow and being in Washington) from the abstract Löbian machine common to them.

It is the same difference as the difference between a program applied to some input, and the same program applied to another input. Here the location might be virtual like in step six. A localization is a mean to get an information. We could have used more abstract differentiation with just two bits 0 or 1.

Bruno talks about plurality but never shows how the plurality of numbers and their mutual exclusive identities transfers onto a plurality of minds.

It seems obvious, as arithmetic allow different machines with different experiences and minds.

   What distiguishes the different machines?

Either their codes, or their inputs, or both.

My question follows from the way that Godel numbering makes the natural ordering of the Integers vanish

That does not make sense.

unless there is a way to keep the native identity of the integers separated from the Godel numbers and from the universal numbers.

? The identity of the numbers follows by the theory. Ax 0 ≠ s(x), s(x) = s(y) -> x = y, etc. A Gödel number is just a program or machine description written in arithmetic. The Gödel numbering (programming) would not work, if it would change the elementary arithmetical truth. Gödel numbers are built on the top of it.

It seems to me that if we allow got Godel numbering schemes to code propositions then we cause the uniqueness of number identity to become degenerate. For example: 0123456789 can mean many things. It can be a particular number, it can be a Godel code for some other number, it can be a string of numbers...

A number support a person only relatively to a universal number. You have the same problem with any notion of states description in physics, or in any theory.

How are the universal numbers distinguished from each other at the Platonic level?

Like 0 ≠ s(0).



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