On 18 Nov 2012, at 19:30, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> We just agreed that the helsinki man is the one who remember
Helsinki, so that both the W and M man are still the Helsinki man.
Fine, and Bruno Marchal said that "you" is the Helsinki man and
Bruno Marchal just said "the W and M man are still the Helsinki
man" (please note the use of the word "and");
We have to describe the situation in the 3p way. But this has to been
used to get the 1p conclusions, which is what you fail to do.
therefore the answer to the question " what city will you see after
you push the button?" is rather obvious because YOU HAS BEEN
And what is it? That I see both Washington and Moscow. No, you would
not go that far (and that would contradict what you have already agree
So you are thinking that it is "I see W and not M, and I see M and not
W". This is correct in the 3-view on the 1-views, but is simply
contradictory from the 1-views on the 1-view. You can't see both city
simultaneously. The W-man and the M-man are both the Helsinki, man,
but there are no more supporting the same 1-view. No problem here,
because "you have been duplicated".
> you confuse the 1)view and the 3-view,
Dear god not more peeing!!
This does not help your case.
If its going to be of any value to me at all I've got to know who
"you" is from my point of view, that is to say from the point of
view of the reader of the thought experiment. In your last post you
were clearer then usual about who "you" is but that was a mistake
because it leads to a conclusion you don't like,
so now all you can do is use more pronouns and pee more.
> But seeing W only and M only is a contradiction, from the 1p view.
None of the copies will write in their unique diary "I see W only
and I see M only".
My car weighs 2000 pounds but half my car weighs 1000 pounds, if
half my car could write in its diary it would say it weighs 1000 and
only 1000 pounds yet my car weighs 2000 pounds, and to make matters
even worse you are unable to predict which of the two 1000 pound
weights half of my car will weigh. Therefore I have discovered a new
type of indeterminacy involving my car never before known to science.
> Read AUDA where the pronouns are handled
Pronouns don't need to be handled, they just exist for convenience
and economy and to make prose sound smoother, but logical ideas can
be expressed without pronouns; but even though exact copies are
running all over the place in the thought experiment and Bruno
Marchal was asked repeatedly not to use pronouns Bruno Marchal is
incapable of expressing ideas without using pronouns; indeed the
ambiguous nature and shifting meaning of words like "you" and "I" is
the only hope of concealing the logical blunders at the center.
You hope, indeed.
See AUDA which use a "well known technic" to avoid pronouns, if you
think there is a problem.
Up to now, you fail to answer a very simple question of prediction
(which most people if not all, except sunday philosophers) have any
You push on a button, and, as a comp is assumed, you know that when
you will open your eyes WHOEVER you will be by the comp assumption,
you will see only only once city, and you are asked to evaluate which
one. If "W" and "M" represent the two possible subjective outcomes,
you, in Helsinki, know in advance that, after pushing the button and
doing the self-localization:
1) W & M is contradictory,
2) W is refuted by the M-man,
3) M is refuted by the W-man
4) W v M is acknowledged by both.
So the answer is the non constructive exclusive OR: W v M. You can
paraphrase it by (said by the H-man): I will feel myself to be in W or
in M, but I can't be sure of which one.
In the iterated case, this is even more obvious, and will be: I will
live sequence of W and M, like WWMMWMMMW..., and I can't be sure of
which sequence. The majority of copies interviewed after will confirm
the prediction (stronger than P = 1/2, actually) that such sequence
are algorithmically non compressible, and thus truly random.
> Comp is just a "digital" version of Descrates mechanism (roughly
speaking the body functions like some machine)
Then there is already a better and much more widely used word for
that "scientific"; indeed to my knowledge "comp" is not used
anyplace except on this list, and even then only by a few.
Your knowledge is poor the, as "computationalism" is used widely, and
the comp I have defined is a weak version implied by all the others.
And so the consequence of this weaker comp is inherited by all
versions, making the result quite general.
> find a refutation of step 3, which does not confuse the 1 and 3
views, which does not confuse the 1 and 3 views, nor change the
protocol. I am all ears,
First tell me who "you" is from the point of view of the reader of
the thought experiment without using more ambiguous pronouns to
explain that ambiguous pronoun.
From the point of view of the reader, you can be attached to all the
bodies involved. So you are the Helsinki man in Helsinki, and then you
are the W-man AND the M-man, as with comp we can attribute
consciousness and "Clark's identity" to both copies. That is the
intellectual 3p view on the 1-views.
But the question is about what you will feel, and in that case, it is
pretty obvious that WHOEVER you can be after pushing on the button, in
all circumstances, you will feel to be in only one city, and you have
to evaluate the chance that it is W, OR M.
It is the use of "1" and "3" which prevents any ambiguity to make the
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