On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 10:17 AM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stathis, I am afraid you took the "easy way out".
> Let me interject in ITALICS into your post-text below
> JohnM
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 9:41 AM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Stathis!!!!!!!!!!! (See after your remark)  -  John M
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Stathis Papaioannou
>> > <stath...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It's possible to prove that computers can be conscious if it can be
>> >> proved that the physical movement of the parts of the brain can be
>> >> simulated by a computer.
>> >
>> > ================================
>> >>
>> >> Firstly: did we agree in a working identification of 'conscious'?
>> It's a mysterious thing you know you have when you have it. For the
>> purposes of this discussion that suffices.
> Please do not denigrate "THIS DISCUSSION"! you THINK you know,
> when you THINK you have it.  I rather state my ignorance.

Are you unsure if you're conscious?

>> >     Secondly: is such 'conscious' phenomenon PHYSICAL?
>> It appears to be associated with or supervene on or be caused by
>> certain brain processes, since when those brain processes are present
>> consciousness (whatever it is) is also present, and when those brain
>> processes are not present consciousness is not present.
> ASSOCIATED WITH, or SUPERVENE ON? that is our human addition to
> ideas we generate. "Caused by" is totally imaginary.

Do you deny that there is even an APPEARANCE of an association or
supervenience or causation?

>> >     Thirdly: do we know ALL (even restricted to 'physical(?)') movements
>> > of
>> > (all) the parts of the brain involved in mental actiity to state ALL
>> > their
>> > movements can be simulated by a computer?
>> No, we can't be sure. There may be non-computable physical processes
>> in the universe. But the evidence is that physics is computable.
> What I meant was different: in the present phase of our  gathering of
> information we must be sure NOT to know ALL movements of mental
> activity so our (embryonic) computers cannot simulate them all.
> Is your "evidence" based on our nomenclature of a computable physics?
> In my (tentative) ID for Ccness (response to relations) non-brainfunction-
> based responses (call them physical?) are also observable. Hence my
> questioning of the adjective 'conscious'. - T H A T - may be PHYSICAL
> (ha ha) - of course also 'mental' (=ideational).

That the brain is computable means only that the physics determining
the brain's observable behaviour can be simulated by a computer with
an arbitrarily large amount of memory. But nothing is implied about
the technical feasibility of this.

Stathis Papaioannou

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