On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 10:17 AM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote: > Stathis, I am afraid you took the "easy way out". > Let me interject in ITALICS into your post-text below > JohnM > > On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 9:41 AM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Stathis!!!!!!!!!!! (See after your remark) - John M >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Stathis Papaioannou >> > <stath...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> It's possible to prove that computers can be conscious if it can be >> >> proved that the physical movement of the parts of the brain can be >> >> simulated by a computer. >> > >> > ================================ >> >> >> >> Firstly: did we agree in a working identification of 'conscious'? >> >> It's a mysterious thing you know you have when you have it. For the >> purposes of this discussion that suffices. > > Please do not denigrate "THIS DISCUSSION"! you THINK you know, > when you THINK you have it. I rather state my ignorance.
Are you unsure if you're conscious? >> > Secondly: is such 'conscious' phenomenon PHYSICAL? >> >> It appears to be associated with or supervene on or be caused by >> certain brain processes, since when those brain processes are present >> consciousness (whatever it is) is also present, and when those brain >> processes are not present consciousness is not present. > > ASSOCIATED WITH, or SUPERVENE ON? that is our human addition to > ideas we generate. "Caused by" is totally imaginary. Do you deny that there is even an APPEARANCE of an association or supervenience or causation? >> > Thirdly: do we know ALL (even restricted to 'physical(?)') movements >> > of >> > (all) the parts of the brain involved in mental actiity to state ALL >> > their >> > movements can be simulated by a computer? >> >> No, we can't be sure. There may be non-computable physical processes >> in the universe. But the evidence is that physics is computable. > > What I meant was different: in the present phase of our gathering of > information we must be sure NOT to know ALL movements of mental > activity so our (embryonic) computers cannot simulate them all. > Is your "evidence" based on our nomenclature of a computable physics? > In my (tentative) ID for Ccness (response to relations) non-brainfunction- > based responses (call them physical?) are also observable. Hence my > questioning of the adjective 'conscious'. - T H A T - may be PHYSICAL > (ha ha) - of course also 'mental' (=ideational). That the brain is computable means only that the physics determining the brain's observable behaviour can be simulated by a computer with an arbitrarily large amount of memory. But nothing is implied about the technical feasibility of this. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
