On 30 Dec 2012, at 13:35, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal
.
IMHO, which you don't have to agree with, 3p is completely differnt from 1p

Better not agreeing, as this limit the interest of conversing.





Here's how I see the whole picture:

1p = physical input signal from outside world into brain -----> (2p = the mind's black box of mental (not brain) signal processing) --->
    ---> 3p = physical signal output to outside world through brain.

Usually, 1p = the subjective personal account of the experience.
And 3p is some "objective view".

1p is not communicable (except approximately by artists)
3p is usually communicable, or locally communicable.

All scientific statement is 3p. Even when talking about "1p".





1p = physical input of outside world as part of the brain.

2p = "black box" mental signal processing of 1p

3p = physical output from 2p as through the brain to outside world.

You might give too much importance to the physical, which with comp appear to be only 1p plural. Eventually, we can limit ourself to arithmetic for the 3p. Then the 1p & Co. are "numbers with an angle, or a point of view".

Bruno









[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/30/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-12-29, 14:36:58
Subject: Re: A few definitions of the categories and two examples of their use(in perception)


On 29 Dec 2012, at 16:07, Roger Clough wrote:

The classic example

3p= thirdness= is when I react to the pain

Hmm.. this is the idea, except that with comp, this will be only plural_1p. But no problem as, locally, first person plural behaves like a 3p notion. That is indeed why we confuse them and believe the mind comes from matter activity, when eventually matter activity is a way mind articulate the information about its the most probable computations.



2p = secondness = is when I feel the pain

1p = firstness = is when somebody stick me with a pin (Quale)

Is not "I feel pain" a quale?





Also

3p is when I know and/or say that the coffee tastes bad (mind or reason)

? If you can use reason to explain a taste, I will ask you the method.

In french we say popularly that "about taste and color we don't argue". (Des go鹴s et des couleurs on ne discute pas).



2p is when I am tasting something funny about the coffee. (feeling or sensing)

I will ask you for the coffee recipe.

Funny?

Cannabis, salvia or even alcohol, I can imagine. But Coffee!?!




1p is when I take a sip of coffee.(body-QUALE- input to sensing nerves)


OK, I see why you say this.

Keep in mind in UDA 1p is just defined by the content of the diary of the guy or girl annihilated and reconstituted, with their diary, as opposed to the diary of an external observer (3p). In AUDA the 1p is defined by "a correct belief" with respect to a probable situation.

Just to help you for other threads.

Bruno




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Few Definitions of the categories

http://www.cspeirce.com/menu/library/bycsp/newlist/nl-frame.htm


The Categories as used in perception:

I 1p--Quality (Reference to a Ground),
II 2p-- Relation (Reference to a Correlate),
II 3p--Representation (Reference to an Interpretant),

I 1p-- Quale (that which refers to a ground),
II 2p--Relate (that which refers to a ground and correlate, )
III 3p--Representamen (that which refers to ground, correlate, and interpretant. )


http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/terms/secondness.html

"Careful analysis shows that to the three grades of valency of indecomposable concepts correspond
three classes of characters or predicates.

Firstly come " firstnesses," or positive internal characters of the subject in itself;

secondly come "secondnesses," or brute actions of one subject or substance on another,
regardless of law or of any third subject;

thirdly comes "thirdnesses," or the mental or quasi-mental influence of one subject on
another relatively to a third." ('Pragmatism', CP 5.469, 1907)



Firstness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, positively and without reference to anything else. Secondness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, with respect to a second but regardless of any third. Thirdness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, in bringing a second and third into relation to each other."


>>
>> The following equivalences should hold >>

>> 3p = Thirdness or III
>> 2p = Secondness or II
>> 1p = Firstness or I.
>>
>> Comp seems to only use analytic or deductive logic,
>> while Peirce's categories are epistemological (synthetic
>> logic) categories, in which secondness is an integral part.
>> So .
>>
>> Here's what Peirce has to say about his categorioes:
>>
>> http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/terms/secondness.html
>>
>>
>> "Firstness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is,
>> positively and without reference to anything else.
>>
>> Secondness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is,
>> with respect to a second but regardless of any third.
>>
>> Thirdness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is,
>> in bringing a second and third into relation to each other."
>> (A Letter to Lady Welby, CP 8.328, 1904)"
>>









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