Hi Bruno Marchal 

Could the incompleteness theorem simply be an artifact of
wrong-headedly trying to reach the necessary from the realm of contingency ? 

That is, trying synthesize a system, whereas it is actually already complete
if deduced analytically ?


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/10/2013 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-09, 12:10:16
Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God




On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:







On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:



On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:


Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?


I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of 
inconsistency (that is: G?el's second incompleteness theorem).


Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are 
local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?


Why?
I don't think so. G?el's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the 
elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the 
whole thing, and not even give it a name.
This can be made more precise in "model theory", or "set theory" where we can 
define "absolute" and "relative".






That makes sense with my empirical understanding of realty: there are things 
that I find beautiful and others find ugly. Hate groups feel that they just 
have a correct understanding of reality, and so on.


I am OK with this, except on elementary arithmetic. You need this just to 
define "formalism", "machine", etc. But even such kind of truth cannot be 
communicate as such, unless we first agree on some axioms, and on what axioms 
are.









Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an evolutionary 
advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove correct arithmetical 
propositions, to shorten the proofs of non trivial propositions, etc. I am able 
to conceive, some day, that all axioms of infinity are of this type (but this 
is a strong statement).


So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from their local 
evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can be justified, when the 
goal is to make money locally and quickly. A bit like when the "first animal" 
decided to feed on a vegetal, which is a form of molecules stealing, at some 
level. Then other animals steal the molecules of those vegetarians, and so on. 
This has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to eat or to be eaten, and 
sometimes that hurts.


Ok - at the evolutionary level of abstraction.


Well, OK. It still hurts, and the hurting feeling seems to be something 
absolute. We cannot doubt a feeling of headache, even if we can doubt the 
primary existence of the head.


Bruno









In the main line ...


Bruno









On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:



According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One
(ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I
sense God's presence.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/9/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

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