Hi Bruno Marchal  

Could it be -- borrowing from Leibniz's Theodicy-- that in Heaven, 
all of the forms are perfect, as, say, prisms in a display cabinet, 
but when you spill the cabinet and try to fit the perfect prisms
back together down here on the floor (in this contingent world), 
there are gaps and misfits ? 

In other words, from energy (Heaven) to entropy (Earth).  


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/10/2013  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-09, 10:41:37 
Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God 


On 09 Jan 2013, at 14:29, Roger Clough wrote: 

> Hi Telmo Menezes 
> 
> In the Christian tradition, Satan. 
> 
> In the Platonic tradition (which Bruno knows 
> much better than I do), I think the Demiurge. 


Platonists are not so good on the bad, and the bad is really a complex  
problem. I suggest an answer in my post to Telmo. 

To give you a "bad" example, Plotinus explains that the bad occurs  
only to bad people. It warns that if you rape a woman, you will be  
punished. How: by becoming a woman in your next life, and by being  
raped. 

This is unfortunate, as it might gives the idea that if a woman  
attracts you up to the point you will rape her, it is OK, as it can  
only mean that you are raping some "guy" who raped a woman in his/her  
preceding life! But this will only justify and perpetuate the bad. 

It is not entirely nonsensical, and may be Plotinus was to quick. It  
can be related to the buddhist notion of karma, but here too, a danger  
remains to make sick and miserable people, if that was not enough,  
also feeling guilty. It leads to the idea that whatever bad happens to  
you comes from bad thing you did in a preceding life, and this means  
that it is always your fault. Basically, the idea of sin comes from  
this too. But this can be used by people who want to manipulate you,  
as history illustrates. 
With the explanation suggested to Telmo, I would say the bad exists  
due to its logical closeness to the good. Also good can be a  
protagorean virtue, meaning that if you try to define the good in some  
normative way, then the bad will be guarantied to happen. 

Bruno 




> 
> 
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
> 1/9/2013 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Telmo Menezes 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2013-01-09, 07:26:45 
> Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God 
> 
> 
> Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from? 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Roger Clough wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from  
> the One 
> (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or  
> beauty, I 
> sense God's presence. 
> 
> 
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
> 1/9/2013 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
> 
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 



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