On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

Thanks. I am finally beginning to understand your concept of dreaming machines. A fertile idea, which, when understood, makes comp seem more realizable.

The inverse process --producing solids with structures by
a process such as the precipitation of ice crystals in a glass
of cooling water, seems even more likely-- to me at least.

The Big Bang then might be something similar, with an
explosion replacing the precipitation, that of particles from Mind.

Where does the Big Bang comes from. What are the particles from mind.




If the One=Mind is the source of all that is created, then
physical existence had to come out of mind.

Yes. But I prefer to associate mind with the Noùs. The One (the outer God, arithmetical truth) is more primitive and simple. This fits better with the comp assumption, I think.

Bruno






[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/11/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-10, 13:47:39
Subject: Re: What is Idealism ?


On 10 Jan 2013, at 14:49, Roger Clough wrote:

Since there has been some discussion of Plato and Leibniz,
who are both IMHO Idealists, but of different forms,
and since I have argued much against materialism, which
is inverse to Idealism, I thought the following
might be helpful:

Idealism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Idealism (ethics).
This article is about the philosophical notion of idealism. For
other uses, see Idealism (disambiguation).

The 20th century British scientist Sir James Jeans wrote that "the
Universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great
machine"
In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert
that reality, or reality as we can know it, is
fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial.

In *that* sense comp leads to "idealism".

But prefer to say "immaterialism", because "reality" is not the
product of the mental. Reality is arithmetic (no need of more on the
ontology), and the physical is a mental construct of dreaming machines
(a concept which can be translated in arithmetic, accepting Church's
thesis).

I need an arithmetic independent of the mind, because with comp, the
mind can be defined basically by a universal number mathematical
property. Then matter becomes a sort of projective border or
derivative of the mind.

Idealism is immaterialistic, but immaterialism is not necessarily
idealistic. We can be mathematicalist, or arithmericalist instead.

Bruno



Epistemologically,
idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing
any mind-independent thing. In a sociological sense,
idealism emphasizes how human ideas. especially beliefs and values,
shape society.
[1] As an ontological doctrine, idealism goes further, asserting
that all entities are composed of mind or spirit.[2] Idealism thus
rejects physicalist and dualist theories that fail to ascribe
priority to the mind. The corresponding idea in metaphysics is monism.
The earliest extant arguments that the world of experience is
grounded in the mental derive from India and Greece. The Hindu
idealists in India
and the Greek Neoplatonists gave pantheistic arguments for an all-
pervading consciousness as the ground or true nature of reality.[3]
In contrast, the Yogacara school, which arose within Mahayana
Buddhism in India in the 4th century CE,[4] based its "mind-only"
idealism to a greater extent on phenomenological analyses of
personal experience. This turn toward the subjective anticipated
empiricists such as George Berkeley, who revived idealism in 18th-
century Europe by employing skeptical arguments against materialism.
Beginning with [Leibniz], Immanuel Kant, German idealists such as
,G. W. F. Hegel, Johann Gottlieb Fichte, Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph
Schelling, and
Arthur Schopenhauer dominated 19th-century philosophy. This
tradition, which emphasized the mental or "ideal" character of all
phenomena,
birthed idealistic and subjectivist schools ranging from British
idealism to phenomenalism to existentialism.
The historical influence of this branch of idealism remains central
even to the schools that rejected its metaphysical
assumptions, such as Marxism, pragmatism, and positivism.

[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/10/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

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