On Saturday, January 12, 2013 11:34:37 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote:
>
> Craig, 
> You sound like the ultimate flower girl, all touchy and feelie. 
> However, yo might very well be right. 
> Richard 
>

Mother nature's son?
 

>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > On Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:33:11 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: 
> >> 
> >> EM waves and fields clearly exist in spacetime. 
> > 
> > 
> > How do you know that they don't exist in matter? 
> > 
> >> 
> >> Yet I would classify 
> >> them along with quantum waves as part of the quantum mind and 
> >> nonphysical. 
> > 
> > 
> > I don't see anything as nonphysical, only public and private ranges of 
> > physics. 
> > 
> >> 
> >> The photon particle and quantum particles appear to bridge the gap 
> >> between the physical and the mind in a mind/body duality or as Roger 
> >> puts it, a dual aspect theory. 
> > 
> > 
> > That's because they don't consider that matter is inherently sensitive. 
> Once 
> > you consider that possibility, there is no need to imagine phantom 
> particles 
> > and waves in a vacuum full of 'energy'...it's all Emperor's New Clothes 
> > stuff that keeps coming back again and again - aether, phlogiston, 
> prana, 
> > chi, radiation, élan vital. It's screamingly obvious to me now that 
> these 
> > are all the same misapplication of private range physics to public range 
> > experience because we cannot accept that private experience is real or 
> that 
> > public realism is an experience. 
> > 
> >> 
> >> What I picture is that if everything happens instantly in the quantum 
> >> mind, quantum and EM waves can collapse instantly into something the 
> >> size of particles so that they may interact with other particles at 
> >> the Planck scale. 
> > 
> > 
> > None of it is real. EM waves are feelings that matter shares with 
> matter. 
> > Nothing collapses, Planck scale is a mathematical abstraction, and 
> quantum 
> > mind is just plain old ordinary sense. 
> > 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I think this is a necessary step, a collapse of waves to a particle 
> >> size, even for MWI, in order to obtain multiple physical worlds. So it 
> >> does not rule out MWI. 
> > 
> > 
> > A universe based on the foundation of perceptual participation (sense) 
> makes 
> > MWI unlikely and irrelevant. 
> > 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> But if waves can collapse instantly in the quantum mind, then the 
> >> Feynman method of cancelling the infinities of Quantum 
> >> Electrodynamics, equivalent to Cramer's Transactional Analysis, can be 
> >> used to obtain a single world. The anti-particles that come back 
> >> instantly from the future, so to speak, may cancel out all the extra 
> >> worlds of MWI. 
> >> 
> >> Now it took some intelligence for Feynman to make his method work. So 
> >> I imagine that the quantum mind must possess some form of 
> >> consciousness and intelligence to choose which anti-particles are 
> >> needed to cancel all the quantum states but one in any 
> >> particle-particle interaction. I suspect that the quantum mind in each 
> >> of us possesses similar consciousness. 
> >> 
> >> Moreover, I have come to accept the notion of a few consciousness 
> >> investigators that consciousness is the energy of the quantum mind. I 
> >> base my acceptance on how I focus my own consciousness to accomplish 
> >> almost anything. It's like just putting out the energy of 
> >> consciousness helps thoughts to emerge. 
> > 
> > 
> > Consciousness isn't an energy, energy is a model of sensory-motor 
> experience 
> > with the personal orientation stripped out of it. Useful, but not 
> concretely 
> > real - just another name for the presumed external universal resource 
> like 
> > élan vital. 
> > 
> >> 
> >> Intelligence and free will may 
> >> differ from consciousness but such intention can guide consciousness. 
> >> Therefore intelligence and free will may have a deeper source. 
> > 
> > 
> > The more sense elaborates within itself, fragments into layers upon 
> layers 
> > of embodied feelings, the more the quality is enriched. Consciousness 
> > encapsulates many awarenesses, awareness encapsulates feelings, feeling 
> > encapsulates perceptions, perception encapsulates sensations, etc. It is 
> the 
> > elaboration of sense which allows experiences to become intelligent, and 
> > with intelligence, the higher quality of sense educates the motivations, 
> > expands the experience of time so that instincts can be interrupted and 
> > replaced by more refined considerations. This virtuous cycle between 
> > intelligence and free will is inevitable, but it is will beneath 
> > intelligence which integrates information and utilizes it. 
> > 
> > Craig 
> > 
> >> Richard 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> 
>
> >> wrote: 
> >> > Hi Roger, 
> >> > 
> >> > How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal 
> >> > dimensions? 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net> 
> >> > wrote: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> Hi everything-list, 
> >> >> 
> >> >> I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI. 
> >> >> Here's why: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect, 
> >> >> due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves 
> >> >> are physical waves, so that everything is physical and 
> materialistic. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed 
> >> >> in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave 
> >> >> and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird 
> >> >> happening. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> My own view is that the weirdness arises because the 
> >> >> waves and the photons are residents of two completely 
> >> >> different but interpenetrating worlds, where: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 1) the photon is a resident of the physical world, 
> >> >> where by physical I mean (along with Descartes) 
> >> >> "extended in space", 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of 
> >> >> the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no 
> >> >> extension in space. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> Under these conditions, there is no need 
> >> >> to create an additional physical world, since each 
> >> >> can exist as aspects of the the same world, 
> >> >> one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like 
> >> >> mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world 
> >> >> beyond spacetime. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
> >> >> 1/12/2013 
> >> >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
> >> >> 
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