On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 10:31:18 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 21:34, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:44:41 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>> You seem to not having yet realize that with comp, not only materialism 
>>> is wrong, but also weak materialism, that is, the doctrine asserting the 
>>> primary existence of matter, or the existence of primary matter. 
>>> We are, well, not in the matrix, but in infinities of purely 
>>> arithmetical matrices. matter is an appearance from inside.
>>> My point is not that this is true, but that it follows from comp, and 
>>> that computer science makes this enough precise so that we can test it.
>> Bruno, 
>> Is it possible that the existence of matter from comp as a dream of the 
>> Quantum Mind happened once and for all time way back in time?
>> Richard
> Quantum Deism. Cool. 
> It still doesn't make sense that there could be any presentation of 
> anything at all under comp. If you can have 'infinities of purely 
> arithmetical matrices' which can simulate all possibilities and 
> relations... why have anything else? Why have anything except purely 
> arithmetical matrices?
> You have the stable illusions, whose working is described by the 
> self-reference logics.

Describing that some arithmetic systems function as if they were stable 
illusions does not account for the experienced presence of sensory-motor 
participation. I can explain how torturing someone on the rack would 
function to dislocate their limbs, and the fact *that* this bodily change 
could be interpreted by the victim as an outcome with a high priority 
avoidance value, but it cannot be explained how or why there is an 
experienced 'feeling'. 

The indisputable reality is that it is the deeply unpleasant quality of the 
feeling of this torture is the motivation behind it. In fact, there are 
techniques now where hideous pain is inflicted by subcutaneous microwave 
stimulation which does not substantially damage tissue. The torture is 
achieved through manipulation of the 'stable illusion' of experienced pain 

While the function of torture to elicit information can be mapped out 
logically, the logic is built upon an unexamined assumption that pain and 
feeling simply arise as some kind of useless decoration. It only seems to 
work retrospectively when we take perception and participation for granted. 
If we look at it prospectively instead, we see that a universe founded on 
logic has no possibility of developing perception or participation, as it 
already includes in its axioms an assumption of quantitative sense. 
Machines, as conceived by comp, are already sentient without any kind of 
tangible, experiential, or even geometric presentation. If you have 
discrete data, why would you add some superfluous layer of blur?

> let us compare with nature, and so we can progress. You seem to start from 
> the answers. You can do that if the goal is just contemplation, but then 
> you become a poet. That is nice, but is not the goal of the scientists.

My only goal is to make the most sense that can be made.


> Bruno
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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