On 23 Jan 2013, at 16:49, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 10:31:18 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 22 Jan 2013, at 21:34, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:44:41 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote:
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
You seem to not having yet realize that with comp, not only
materialism is wrong, but also weak materialism, that is, the
doctrine asserting the primary existence of matter, or the
existence of primary matter.
We are, well, not in the matrix, but in infinities of purely
arithmetical matrices. matter is an appearance from inside.
My point is not that this is true, but that it follows from comp,
and that computer science makes this enough precise so that we can
Is it possible that the existence of matter from comp as a dream of
the Quantum Mind happened once and for all time way back in time?
Quantum Deism. Cool.
It still doesn't make sense that there could be any presentation of
anything at all under comp. If you can have 'infinities of purely
arithmetical matrices' which can simulate all possibilities and
relations... why have anything else? Why have anything except
purely arithmetical matrices?
You have the stable illusions, whose working is described by the
Describing that some arithmetic systems function as if they were
stable illusions does not account for the experienced presence of
The arithmetic systems are not the stable illusions. They only support
the person who has such stable illusions.
I can explain how torturing someone on the rack would function to
dislocate their limbs, and the fact *that* this bodily change could
be interpreted by the victim as an outcome with a high priority
avoidance value, but it cannot be explained how or why there is an
The explanation is provided by the difference of logic between Bp and
Bp & p. It works very well, including the non communicability of the
qualia, the feeling that our soul is related to our body and bodies in
The indisputable reality is that it is the deeply unpleasant quality
of the feeling of this torture is the motivation behind it. In fact,
there are techniques now where hideous pain is inflicted by
subcutaneous microwave stimulation which does not substantially
damage tissue. The torture is achieved through manipulation of the
'stable illusion' of experienced pain alone.
*that* should be illegal.
While the function of torture to elicit information can be mapped
out logically, the logic is built upon an unexamined assumption that
pain and feeling simply arise as some kind of useless decoration.
Why? Torturers know very well how the effect is unpleasant for the
It only seems to work retrospectively when we take perception and
participation for granted. If we look at it prospectively instead,
we see that a universe founded on logic has no possibility of
developing perception or participation,
Universe are not founded on logics. Even arithmetic is not founded on
logic. You talk like a 19th century logician. Logicism has failed
since, even for numbers and machines. The fact that you seem unaware
of this might explain your prejudices on machines and numbers.
as it already includes in its axioms an assumption of quantitative
Comp is mainly an assumption that some quantitative relation can
support qualitative relations locally. But you cannot indentify them,
as they obey different logic, like Bp and Bp & p, for example. The
quality appears thanks to the reference to truth (a non formalizable
Machines, as conceived by comp, are already sentient without any
kind of tangible, experiential, or even geometric presentation. If
you have discrete data, why would you add some superfluous layer of
We don't add it.
The logic of self-reference explains why we cannot avoid it.
let us compare with nature, and so we can progress. You seem to
start from the answers. You can do that if the goal is just
contemplation, but then you become a poet. That is nice, but is not
the goal of the scientists.
My only goal is to make the most sense that can be made.
By discarding the idea that machines can make sense. You get less sense.
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