Hi Alberto G. Corona 

Here's my view:

The physical is that which is extended in space.

Mind is nonphysical, since not extended in space.

Mathematics may describe things extended in space, but it is descriptive 
knowledge of
    things extended in space (3p), and like all descriptive knowledge, and like 
numbers, 
    must be and is part of mind, of platonia.
    So the mathematical manifolds are not extened in space, hence nonphysical.a

----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-02-03, 19:26:52
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Block Universe


Depend on what you mean by physical. For me , the block universes is a  
manifold, a pure mathematical structure which may not contain the minds but 
somehow contain their history and determine their lawful and communicable 
experiences.  The physical world, what we see, with his causalities, his time, 
his 3d space, his macroscopical laws, is a product of the mind when he 
contemplate the mathematical structure from inside.



2013/2/3 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>

Hi Alberto G. Corona 
 
My understanding is that the block universe is the physical universe,
so it does not include the world of mind.
 
 
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-02-02, 14:14:51
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Block Universe


In the world of the mind, that is, in what we call reality, it causes 
everithing because causality is another phenomenon introduced by the mind (1p)  


In the timeless view, there is no causality buy casualty  Viewed from above in 
a broad perspective, then to cause something is to select it, so there is a 
identity between the anthropic principle at large, natural selection and  
voluntary conscious selection by a mind. all three can be seen as causations 
when we examine them from a 1p perspective, in a timeful fashion. But viewing 
the block universe from above,  simply they are correlations. There is no 
causality but local phenomenons.  


I have to mention that a view from above would need a mind with space-time 
qualia and probably a meta-time that we can only imagine. for this mind, 
creation of the universes adquire another very different meaning, since he 
would look at the complete figure of the universe, the beginning and at the end 
of it simultaneously. he would see what exist for us (the phenomena that we 
have selected by the fact that we live in them) and what does not exist 
(because we don'nt observe it, and maybe we can not even imagine it).



2013/2/2 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>

Hi Alberto G. Corona 
 
Does your version of mind actually do anything ?
 
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-02-02, 04:43:54
Subject: Re: Re: Lessons from the Block Universe


I do think that a block universe can contain minds in a certain way. The 
objections against that are based in the absence of time, but space(3D 
geometry) and time can and should be a product of the machinery of the mind, in 
the kantian sense. But while in Kant things in themselves are unreachable, in 
the block universe the thing in themselves are pure mathematics. so there are 
infinite minds at different moments that produce psychological phenomenons in 
coherence with the infinite sucession of brains along their lines of life, that 
are perceived psychologicaly as time. these brains and living beings, are 
localy perceived as products of natural selection, but seen from above, their 
lines of life are just trajectories where, by fortunate collisions of 
particles, chemical and electrical signals, the entropy is exceptionally 
maintained constant (until the end of the line of life) 


But the minds are somehow in another world, the world of the mind, which 
includes not only our thoughs but everithing we see around us, because 
everithing the mind see is produced by the machinery of the brain. Then the 
block universe of mathematics brings only the coherent substrate where the 
world of the mind can appear by evolution. Because it is a world with laws and 
rules, given by the mathematical nature behind, it is not a collection of 
boltzmann brains, or, if it is, they are a extraordinary persistent and 
coherent form of it so that it appear to contain laws of nature and shared 
experiences, because we can ask ourselves and communicate and agree, on these 
laws and these experiences.







2013/1/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>

Hi Bruno Marchal 
 
The block universe is the physical universe. So we are not part of it,
for it does not allow subjectivity, which is nonphysical. Or
mathematics or comp, which are also nonphysical. 
 
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-30, 12:45:53
Subject: Re: Lessons from the Block Universe


On 29 Jan 2013, at 15:04, Richard Ruquist wrote:

> A block universe does not allow for consciousness.

With comp consciousness does not allow any (aristotelian) universes.

There is comp block mindscape, and the universe(s) = the border of the 
mindscape as seen from inside.



> The fact the we all possess consciousness, so we think,
> means that our universe is not completely blocked,

 From inside.





> although the deviations from "block" may be minor
> and inconsequential regarding the Omega Point.

The comp mind-body problems can be restated by the fact that with 
comp, there is an infinity of omega points, and the physics of here 
and now should be retrieved from some sum or integral on all omega 
points.

By using the self-reference logics we got all the nuances we need (3p, 
1p, 1p-plural, communicable, sharable, observable, etc.).

Bruno





> Richard.
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:18 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> 
> wrote:
>> Here's an essay that is suggestive of Bruno's distinction between 
>> what is
>> provable and what is true (knowable) but unprovable. Maybe this is 
>> a place
>> where COMP could contribute to the understanding of QM.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Lessons from the Block Universe
>>
>>
>> Ken Wharton
>> Department of Physics and Astronomy

>> San Jos State University 

>>
>>
>>
>> http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Wharton_Wharton_Essay.pdf?phpMyAdmin=0c371ccdae9b5ff3071bae814fb4f9e9
>>
>>
>> In Liouville mechanics, states of incomplete
>> knowledge exhibit phenomena analogous to those exhibited
>> by pure quantum states. Among these are the existence
>> of a no-cloning theorem for such states [21, 23],
>> the impossibility of discriminating such states with certainty
>> [21, 24], the lack of exponential divergence of such
>> states (in the space of epistemic states) under chaotic
>> evolution [25], and, for correlated states, many of the
>> features of entanglement [26]. On the other hand, states
>> of complete knowledge do not exhibit these phenomena.
>> This suggests that one would obtain a better analogy
>> with quantum theory if states of complete knowledge
>> were somehow impossible to achieve, that is, if somehow
>> maximal knowledge was always incomplete knowledge
>> [21, 22, 27]. This idea is borne out by the results
>> of this paper. In fact, the toy theory suggests that the
>> restriction on knowledge should take a particular form,

>> namely, that one? knowledge be quantitatively equal to
>> one? ignorance in a state of maximal knowledge. 

>>
>> It is important to bear in mind that one cannot derive
>> quantum theory from the toy theory, nor from any
>> simple modification thereof. The problem is that the
>> toy theory is a theory of incomplete knowledge about
>> local and noncontextual hidden variables, and it is well
>> known that quantum theory cannot be understood in this
>> way [28, 30, 31]. This prompts the obvious question: if
>> a quantum state is a state of knowledge, and it is not
>> knowledge of local and noncontextual hidden variables,
>> then what is it knowledge about? We do not at present
>> have a good answer to this question.
>>
>>
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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