On 06 Feb 2013, at 18:07, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:37:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 05 Feb 2013, at 19:01, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 12:51:10 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 05 Feb 2013, at 18:10, Quentin Anciaux wrote:



2013/2/5 Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>

On 05 Feb 2013, at 14:34, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi meekerdb


There's nothing wrong with science as science.
But a problem arises when you apply the results to theology.

Two completely different worlds.

That's indeed a point where string atheists agree with string christian. Let us try to be not serious on theology, so we can assert the fairy tales. Strong Christian are happy because they feel like they can contradict the scientific evidences, and the atheists are happy so they can continue to mock the christians, and continue to sleep on their own (materialist) dogma.

You put meaning in atheism which is not there... an atheist can perfectly be an idealist... materialism is not part of the definition of atheism.

Definition here are often contradictory. Some years ago, the definition keep changing.

Can you give me the name of an atheist who is idealist?

I would consider Sam Harris and Daniel Dennet idealists, in the sense that the ideal is reduced to function rather than a material.


That is not idealism. That's only the common functionalism.

Idealists believe that matter is a production of the mind.


I think that the common belief of Harris and Dennett is that the function of mind creates the illusion of matter as we know it.

That contradicts what I read. You might give a reference.




Beyond our view of matter, I would guess that both of them would agree that matter is a function of quantum functions, which to me is the same thing as an image of the mind made impersonal.

But that is not what people means by quantum, which need to refer to the *assumed* (not derived like in comp) physics.






Dennett made clear that he is physicalist, naturalist, and weak materialist.

I don't know any scientist being idealist, and even in philosophy of mind, most dictionaries describe it as being abandoned.

I agree in the sense that you intend, but I think that functionalism is the same thing as impersonal idealism.

You can't provide new meaning to terms having standard definition. Most functionalist are weak-materialist today. Most scientists believe that comp needs materialism. They are still completely unaware of the first person indeterminacy, and the immaterialist consequences. Functionalism might imply immaterialism, as comp does (comp is that there is a level where functionalism is correct. Functionalism is usually vague on the level, which is implicitly given by some neuro- level, comp is just a much weaker hypothesis).

Bruno





Craig


That explain probably why people take time to swallow the consequences of comp. Comp is the favorite theory of the (weak) materialist, and so it is hard for them to get that comp and materialism, and the usual weak Occam razor, are contradictory.

Bruno

Bruno





Craig


Bruno




Quentin

That does not give much place for the genuine inquiry, I think.

Bruno




----- Receiving the following content -----
From: meekerdb
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-04, 13:48:50
Subject: Re: Topical combination

On 2/4/2013 7:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 03 Feb 2013, at 12:30, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi John Mikes
�
It says
�
"The Fabric of Eternity is the author's personal view of the Universe that allows for science and theology to explore the wonders of creation in peaceful unison.'
IMHO that is completely misguided, because the worlds they understand燼re separate magisteria, to use� Stephan Jay Gould's phrase.� Science deals with the physical world, and theology deals with
the nonphysical world.

Only an Aristotelian can say "science deals with the physical world". This sums up physicalism.

A Platonist says that science is just the modest tool/method to deal with any subject.

Except it was Plato who thought he could understand the world by just thinking about it, while it was Aristotle who went out to observe and let the world teach him.� So who was modest and who was arrogant?

Brent

Allowing the abandon of science in the theological field can only be an invitation to the bad faith in there, and to the "don't ask" mentality.

Bruno

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