2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>

>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>        >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   > Yes (weakly).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49%
>>>>> chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I believe
>>>> it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all I can say.
>>>>
>>>>  I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief is an
>>>> heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating the truth than
>>>> mathematical proof or experimental confirmation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they are
>>>>> sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in those states
>>>>> they don't behave very intelligently.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I don't.
>>>> Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make you doubt that
>>>> belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except suggesting that
>>>> you do those experiences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind, then,
>>>>>> for some mysterious reason, there are two types of human beings: me 
>>>>>> (with a
>>>>>> mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm inclined to believe
>>>>>> that all human beings have a mind,
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution then you
>>>>> must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct of intelligence
>>>>> because Evolution can't directly see consciousness any better than we can
>>>>> and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably other people are
>>>>> conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a computer is intelligent
>>>>> then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that intelligence == 
>>>>> mind.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with, that
>>>> intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that intelligence == mind.
>>>>
>>>>  By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has to
>>>> exist a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just stumbles
>>>> into consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of it's
>>>> origin. So you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of
>>>> consciousness, where you can say that entity A is more conscious than
>>>> entity B. What would that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me (but I
>>>> can't know for sure). Is he less conscious than me? Well I know stuff that
>>>> he doesn't, but he also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he knows
>>>> how it feels to be a cat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a cat.  I
>>>> think it might be possible to change your brain, and your sensory organs,
>>>> so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a cat's (it couldn't
>>>> be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that).  Of course it wouldn't
>>>> be Telmo Menezes any more.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the
>>> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my memories
>>> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't remember
>>> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo Menezes.
>>> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat.
>>>
>>
>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo memories
>> should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be back as
>> Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ?
>>
>
> Hi Quentin,
>
> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human
> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible.
>

Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought experiment
which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in the first
place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a thought
experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring consciousnes
of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being a
cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day we
would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is just
premature to use technical arguments.

Regards,
Quentin


> For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing a
> tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to connect
> the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would
> spoil my cat experience.
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Quentin
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and that a
>>>> cat's consciousness differs in both respects.  There's consciousness of
>>>> being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time.  You and
>>>> the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the latter).  But
>>>> there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat doesn't.
>>>> There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about myself and
>>>> where I fit in the world".  The cat probably doesn't have this because it's
>>>> not social - but a dog might.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it just
>>> the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in different
>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to
>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the same.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brent
>>>>
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