On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so >>>>>>>> why? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Yes (weakly). >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49% >>>>>> chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I believe >>>>> it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all I can say. >>>>> >>>>> I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief is an >>>>> heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating the truth >>>>> than >>>>> mathematical proof or experimental confirmation. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they are >>>>>> sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in those >>>>>> states >>>>>> they don't behave very intelligently. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I don't. >>>>> Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make you doubt that >>>>> belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except suggesting that >>>>> you do those experiences. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind, then, >>>>>>> for some mysterious reason, there are two types of human beings: me >>>>>>> (with a >>>>>>> mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm inclined to believe >>>>>>> that all human beings have a mind, >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution then you >>>>>> must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct of intelligence >>>>>> because Evolution can't directly see consciousness any better than we can >>>>>> and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably other people are >>>>>> conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a computer is intelligent >>>>>> then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that intelligence == >>>>>> mind. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with, that >>>>> intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that intelligence == >>>>> mind. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has to >>>>> exist a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just stumbles >>>>> into consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of it's >>>>> origin. So you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of >>>>> consciousness, where you can say that entity A is more conscious than >>>>> entity B. What would that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me (but I >>>>> can't know for sure). Is he less conscious than me? Well I know stuff that >>>>> he doesn't, but he also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he knows >>>>> how it feels to be a cat. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a cat. I >>>>> think it might be possible to change your brain, and your sensory organs, >>>>> so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a cat's (it couldn't >>>>> be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that). Of course it wouldn't >>>>> be Telmo Menezes any more. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the >>>> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my memories >>>> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't remember >>>> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo Menezes. >>>> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat. >>>> >>> >>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo >>> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be >>> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ? >>> >> >> Hi Quentin, >> >> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human >> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible. >> > > Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought experiment > which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in the first > place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a thought > experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring consciousnes > of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being a > cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day we > would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is just > premature to use technical arguments. > Fair enough, maybe it's my CS bias. But I'm still not convinced this is a purely technical issue. Can you conceive of any system that stores information in some coherent way that you can write to without reading? > > Regards, > Quentin > > >> For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing a >> tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to connect >> the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would >> spoil my cat experience. >> >> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Quentin >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and that >>>>> a cat's consciousness differs in both respects. There's consciousness of >>>>> being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time. You and >>>>> the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the latter). >>>>> But >>>>> there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat doesn't. >>>>> There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about myself and >>>>> where I fit in the world". The cat probably doesn't have this because >>>>> it's >>>>> not social - but a dog might. >>>>> >>>> >>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it just >>>> the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in different >>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to >>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the same. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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