On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so >>>>>>>>>> why? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Yes (weakly). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49% >>>>>>>> chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I >>>>>>> believe it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all I can >>>>>>> say. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief is >>>>>>> an heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating the >>>>>>> truth >>>>>>> than mathematical proof or experimental confirmation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they are >>>>>>>> sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in those >>>>>>>> states >>>>>>>> they don't behave very intelligently. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I >>>>>>> don't. Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make you >>>>>>> doubt >>>>>>> that belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except >>>>>>> suggesting >>>>>>> that you do those experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind, then, >>>>>>>>> for some mysterious reason, there are two types of human beings: me >>>>>>>>> (with a >>>>>>>>> mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm inclined to >>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>> that all human beings have a mind, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution then >>>>>>>> you must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct of >>>>>>>> intelligence because Evolution can't directly see consciousness any >>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>> than we can and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably other >>>>>>>> people are conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a computer is >>>>>>>> intelligent then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that >>>>>>>> intelligence == mind. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with, that >>>>>>> intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that intelligence == >>>>>>> mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has to >>>>>>> exist a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just stumbles >>>>>>> into consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of it's >>>>>>> origin. So you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of >>>>>>> consciousness, where you can say that entity A is more conscious than >>>>>>> entity B. What would that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me (but I >>>>>>> can't know for sure). Is he less conscious than me? Well I know stuff >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> he doesn't, but he also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he knows >>>>>>> how it feels to be a cat. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a cat. I >>>>>>> think it might be possible to change your brain, and your sensory >>>>>>> organs, >>>>>>> so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a cat's (it >>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>> be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that). Of course it >>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>> be Telmo Menezes any more. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the >>>>>> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my memories >>>>>> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't >>>>>> remember >>>>>> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo >>>>>> Menezes. >>>>>> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo >>>>> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be >>>>> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Quentin, >>>> >>>> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human >>>> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible. >>>> >>> >>> Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought experiment >>> which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in the first >>> place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a thought >>> experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring consciousnes >>> of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being a >>> cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day we >>> would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is just >>> premature to use technical arguments. >>> >> >> Fair enough, maybe it's my CS bias. But I'm still not convinced this is a >> purely technical issue. Can you conceive of any system that stores >> information in some coherent way that you can write to without reading? >> > > Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so why not > ? > How? > Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution yourself, doesn't mean > there isn't one, lack of imagination is also not an argument. > I agree, but it's an intuition. > > Regards, > Quentin > > >> >> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Quentin >>> >>> >>>> For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing a >>>> tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to connect >>>> the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would >>>> spoil my cat experience. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Quentin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and >>>>>>> that a cat's consciousness differs in both respects. There's >>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>> of being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time. You >>>>>>> and the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the >>>>>>> latter). >>>>>>> But there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat >>>>>>> doesn't. There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about >>>>>>> myself and where I fit in the world". The cat probably doesn't have >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> because it's not social - but a dog might. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it just >>>>>> the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in different >>>>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to >>>>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the same. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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