On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux 
>>>>>> <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark 
>>>>>>>>> <johnkcl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes <
>>>>>>>>>> te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>        >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If
>>>>>>>>>>>> so why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   > Yes (weakly).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49%
>>>>>>>>>> chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I
>>>>>>>>> believe it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all I 
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> say.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief
>>>>>>>>> is an heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating the
>>>>>>>>> truth than mathematical proof or experimental confirmation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they
>>>>>>>>>> are sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in 
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> states they don't behave very intelligently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I
>>>>>>>>> don't. Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make you 
>>>>>>>>> doubt
>>>>>>>>> that belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except 
>>>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>>>> that you do those experiences.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind,
>>>>>>>>>>> then, for some mysterious reason, there are two types of human 
>>>>>>>>>>> beings: me
>>>>>>>>>>> (with a mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm 
>>>>>>>>>>> inclined to
>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all human beings have a mind,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution then
>>>>>>>>>> you must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct of
>>>>>>>>>> intelligence because Evolution can't directly see consciousness any 
>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>> than we can and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably 
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> people are conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a computer 
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> intelligent then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that
>>>>>>>>>> intelligence == mind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with,
>>>>>>>>> that intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that 
>>>>>>>>> intelligence ==
>>>>>>>>> mind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has to
>>>>>>>>> exist a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just 
>>>>>>>>> stumbles
>>>>>>>>> into consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of it's
>>>>>>>>> origin. So you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of
>>>>>>>>> consciousness, where you can say that entity A is more conscious than
>>>>>>>>> entity B. What would that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me 
>>>>>>>>> (but I
>>>>>>>>> can't know for sure). Is he less conscious than me? Well I know stuff 
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> he doesn't, but he also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he 
>>>>>>>>> knows
>>>>>>>>> how it feels to be a cat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a cat.
>>>>>>>>> I think it might be possible to change your brain, and your sensory 
>>>>>>>>> organs,
>>>>>>>>> so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a cat's (it 
>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>>>>> be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that).  Of course it 
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>>>>> be Telmo Menezes any more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the
>>>>>>>> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my 
>>>>>>>> memories
>>>>>>>> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't 
>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo 
>>>>>>>> Menezes.
>>>>>>>> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo
>>>>>>> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be
>>>>>>> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Quentin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human
>>>>>> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought experiment
>>>>> which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in the first
>>>>> place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a thought
>>>>> experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring consciousnes
>>>>> of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being a
>>>>> cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day we
>>>>> would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is just
>>>>> premature to use technical arguments.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fair enough, maybe it's my CS bias. But I'm still not convinced this is
>>>> a purely technical issue. Can you conceive of any system that stores
>>>> information in some coherent way that you can write to without reading?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so why
>>> not ?
>>>
>>
>> How?
>>
>
> Add a controller to an hard disk which only answer to write request and
> return nothing for read request...
>

Ok, explain the algorithm of that write operation to me. Remember that
you're not allowed to read.


> Don't forget that write only is only for the POV of the cat in our thought
> experiment...
>

But how can I then, as Telmo, possibly access those memories? They are
completely disconnected from my personal diary and context.


> write-only does not have to be for everybody. But it's still a technical
> disgression and it is discussing the number of angels on a pin for now.
>

I think it's a deep question.


>
>
>>
>>
>>> Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution yourself, doesn't mean
>>> there isn't one, lack of imagination is also not an argument.
>>>
>>
>>  I agree, but it's an intuition.
>>
>
> Well...
>
> Quentin
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Quentin
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Quentin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing
>>>>>> a tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to 
>>>>>> connect
>>>>>> the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would
>>>>>> spoil my cat experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Quentin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and
>>>>>>>>> that a cat's consciousness differs in both respects.  There's 
>>>>>>>>> consciousness
>>>>>>>>> of being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time.  
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> and the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the 
>>>>>>>>> latter).
>>>>>>>>> But there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat
>>>>>>>>> doesn't.  There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about
>>>>>>>>> myself and where I fit in the world".  The cat probably doesn't have 
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> because it's not social - but a dog might.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it
>>>>>>>> just the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in 
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to
>>>>>>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the 
>>>>>>>> same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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