On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If >>>>>>>>>>>> so why? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> > Yes (weakly). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49% >>>>>>>>>> chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I >>>>>>>>> believe it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all I >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> say. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief >>>>>>>>> is an heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating the >>>>>>>>> truth than mathematical proof or experimental confirmation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they >>>>>>>>>> are sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> states they don't behave very intelligently. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I >>>>>>>>> don't. Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make you >>>>>>>>> doubt >>>>>>>>> that belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except >>>>>>>>> suggesting >>>>>>>>> that you do those experiences. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind, >>>>>>>>>>> then, for some mysterious reason, there are two types of human >>>>>>>>>>> beings: me >>>>>>>>>>> (with a mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm >>>>>>>>>>> inclined to >>>>>>>>>>> believe that all human beings have a mind, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution then >>>>>>>>>> you must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct of >>>>>>>>>> intelligence because Evolution can't directly see consciousness any >>>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>> than we can and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> people are conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a computer >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> intelligent then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that >>>>>>>>>> intelligence == mind. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with, >>>>>>>>> that intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that >>>>>>>>> intelligence == >>>>>>>>> mind. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has to >>>>>>>>> exist a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just >>>>>>>>> stumbles >>>>>>>>> into consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of it's >>>>>>>>> origin. So you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of >>>>>>>>> consciousness, where you can say that entity A is more conscious than >>>>>>>>> entity B. What would that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me >>>>>>>>> (but I >>>>>>>>> can't know for sure). Is he less conscious than me? Well I know stuff >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> he doesn't, but he also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he >>>>>>>>> knows >>>>>>>>> how it feels to be a cat. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a cat. >>>>>>>>> I think it might be possible to change your brain, and your sensory >>>>>>>>> organs, >>>>>>>>> so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a cat's (it >>>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>>> be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that). Of course it >>>>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>>>> be Telmo Menezes any more. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the >>>>>>>> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my >>>>>>>> memories >>>>>>>> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't >>>>>>>> remember >>>>>>>> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo >>>>>>>> Menezes. >>>>>>>> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo >>>>>>> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be >>>>>>> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Quentin, >>>>>> >>>>>> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human >>>>>> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought experiment >>>>> which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in the first >>>>> place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a thought >>>>> experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring consciousnes >>>>> of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being a >>>>> cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day we >>>>> would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is just >>>>> premature to use technical arguments. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Fair enough, maybe it's my CS bias. But I'm still not convinced this is >>>> a purely technical issue. Can you conceive of any system that stores >>>> information in some coherent way that you can write to without reading? >>>> >>> >>> Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so why >>> not ? >>> >> >> How? >> > > Add a controller to an hard disk which only answer to write request and > return nothing for read request... > Ok, explain the algorithm of that write operation to me. Remember that you're not allowed to read. > Don't forget that write only is only for the POV of the cat in our thought > experiment... > But how can I then, as Telmo, possibly access those memories? They are completely disconnected from my personal diary and context. > write-only does not have to be for everybody. But it's still a technical > disgression and it is discussing the number of angels on a pin for now. > I think it's a deep question. > > >> >> >>> Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution yourself, doesn't mean >>> there isn't one, lack of imagination is also not an argument. >>> >> >> I agree, but it's an intuition. >> > > Well... > > Quentin > > >> >> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Quentin >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Quentin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing >>>>>> a tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to >>>>>> connect >>>>>> the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would >>>>>> spoil my cat experience. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Quentin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and >>>>>>>>> that a cat's consciousness differs in both respects. There's >>>>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>>>> of being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> and the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the >>>>>>>>> latter). >>>>>>>>> But there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat >>>>>>>>> doesn't. There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about >>>>>>>>> myself and where I fit in the world". The cat probably doesn't have >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> because it's not social - but a dog might. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it >>>>>>>> just the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to >>>>>>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the >>>>>>>> same. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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