On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux 
>>>>>> <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux <
>>>>>>>> allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark <
>>>>>>>>>>> johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>        >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   > Yes (weakly).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> 49% chance that you are the only conscious being in the universe?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  I don't know how to assign a probability to that. I guess I
>>>>>>>>>>> believe it's in ]0.5, 1] because I would bet on it, but that's all 
>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>> say.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  I say weakly because the only thing I have to back this belief
>>>>>>>>>>> is an heuristic, which I find to be a weaker form of approximating 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> truth than mathematical proof or experimental confirmation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  By the way, I don't believe other people have minds when they
>>>>>>>>>>>> are sleeping or under anesthesia or dead because when they are in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>> states they don't behave very intelligently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  But that is because you believe that intelligence == mind. I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't. Certain experiences that you can do on yourself might make 
>>>>>>>>>>> you doubt
>>>>>>>>>>> that belief, but I don't know of any way to convince you except 
>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>>>>>> that you do those experiences.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    > Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then, for some mysterious reason, there are two types of human 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beings: me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (with a mind) and the others (zombies). So heuristically I'm 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclined to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all human beings have a mind,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, but if you also believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution
>>>>>>>>>>>> then you must also believe that consciousness MUST be a byproduct 
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence because Evolution can't directly see consciousness 
>>>>>>>>>>>> any better
>>>>>>>>>>>> than we can and so cannot select for it, and yet you and probably 
>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>> people are conscious. Thus you must also believe that if a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer is
>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligent then it is conscious. Then you must also believe that
>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence == mind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  You are begging the question. You're assuming, to begin with,
>>>>>>>>>>> that intelligence == mind and then you claim to prove that 
>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence ==
>>>>>>>>>>> mind.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  By the way, for evolution to generate consciousness there has
>>>>>>>>>>> to exist a gradient to climb. Unless the evolutionary process just 
>>>>>>>>>>> stumbles
>>>>>>>>>>> into consciousness, but in that case it is not a valid theory of 
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>> origin. So you are implicitly assuming that there is some measure of
>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, where you can say that entity A is more conscious 
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> entity B. What would that even mean? My cat seems conscious to me 
>>>>>>>>>>> (but I
>>>>>>>>>>> can't know for sure). Is he less conscious than me? Well I know 
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff that
>>>>>>>>>>> he doesn't, but he also knows stuff that I don't -- for example he 
>>>>>>>>>>> knows
>>>>>>>>>>> how it feels to be a cat.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But that doesn't mean there's something magic about being a
>>>>>>>>>>> cat.  I think it might be possible to change your brain, and your 
>>>>>>>>>>> sensory
>>>>>>>>>>> organs, so that it implemented consciousness very similar to a 
>>>>>>>>>>> cat's (it
>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't be exact because you'd need a cat's body for that).  Of 
>>>>>>>>>>> course it
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be Telmo Menezes any more.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree that this might be possible. But the paradox then is the
>>>>>>>>>> following: to make me feel like a cat you have to strip me of my 
>>>>>>>>>> memories
>>>>>>>>>> (read/write access), so when I'm back from the experience I won't 
>>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>>>> it. In fact I turned into a cat for a while and then back to Telmo 
>>>>>>>>>> Menezes.
>>>>>>>>>> Telmo Menezes still knows nothing about being a cat.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo
>>>>>>>>> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you 
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Quentin,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human
>>>>>>>> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought
>>>>>>> experiment which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> first place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a 
>>>>>>> thought
>>>>>>> experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring 
>>>>>>> consciousnes
>>>>>>> of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day 
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is 
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> premature to use technical arguments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fair enough, maybe it's my CS bias. But I'm still not convinced this
>>>>>> is a purely technical issue. Can you conceive of any system that stores
>>>>>> information in some coherent way that you can write to without reading?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so why
>>>>> not ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Add a controller to an hard disk which only answer to write request and
>>> return nothing for read request...
>>>
>>
>> Ok, explain the algorithm of that write operation to me. Remember that
>> you're not allowed to read.
>>
>
> I just did, your controller only acknowledge write request, and does
> nothing on read request.. ===> write only. What's your point ?
>

My point is that the only possible write algorithm that doesn't read
information that is already stored is one that starts writing at random in
any position. You could erase or corrupt previous information and you have
no index. I cannot imagine a brain that can operate under
such circumstances.


>
>>
>>> Don't forget that write only is only for the POV of the cat in our
>>> thought experiment...
>>>
>>
>> But how can I then, as Telmo, possibly access those memories? They are
>> completely disconnected from my personal diary and context.
>>
>
> Why not ? Do you have definite proof of what is consciousness, how memory
> works, how you can do the thought experiment ? If you don't then, that's
> just premature useless at this stage technical argument.
>

I never said it was a technical argument, you did. What I'm proposing is
that if you experience the 1p of a cat you effectively become one. My
argument is based on abstract CS, not hard drives or other technicalities.


>
>>
>>>  write-only does not have to be for everybody. But it's still a
>>> technical disgression and it is discussing the number of angels on a pin
>>> for now.
>>>
>>
>> I think it's a deep question.
>>
>
> It's not unless you have good working knowledge of the question.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution yourself, doesn't
>>>>> mean there isn't one, lack of imagination is also not an argument.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I agree, but it's an intuition.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well...
>>>
>>> Quentin
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Quentin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Quentin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about
>>>>>>>> climbing a tree, I would have to access my human representation of a 
>>>>>>>> tree
>>>>>>>> to connect the memories to it, but accessing my human representation 
>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>> tree would spoil my cat experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Quentin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and
>>>>>>>>>>> that a cat's consciousness differs in both respects.  There's 
>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness
>>>>>>>>>>> of being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time. 
>>>>>>>>>>>  You
>>>>>>>>>>> and the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the 
>>>>>>>>>>> latter).
>>>>>>>>>>> But there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't.  There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking 
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> myself and where I fit in the world".  The cat probably doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>>> have this
>>>>>>>>>>> because it's not social - but a dog might.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it
>>>>>>>>>> just the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in 
>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems 
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the 
>>>>>>>>>> same.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>>>>>>
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