On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 08 Feb 2013, at 13:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>
>
>
> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo
>>>>> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be
>>>>> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Quentin,
>>>>
>>>> Because that would require that I had write-only access to my human
>>>> memories while being a cat. I don't think that's possible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why not ?? You put forward a technical problem on a thought experiment
>>> which have if you go that way a bigger technical problem in the first
>>> place... so your objection is totally irrelevant, we are in a thought
>>> experiment, in that setting, if we can conceive transferring consciousnes
>>> of the cat, then there is no reason we can't imagine you remember being a
>>> cat after the experiment. I'll agree to talk technical problems the day we
>>> would have the first insight of how to really do it... before, it is just
>>> premature to use technical arguments.
>>>
>>
>> Fair enough, maybe it's my CS bias. But I'm still not convinced this is a
>> purely technical issue. Can you conceive of any system that stores
>> information in some coherent way that you can write to without reading?
>>
>
> Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so why not
> ? Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution yourself, doesn't mean
> there isn't one, lack of imagination is also not an argument.
>
>
> I agree. This can happen in dreams. I have personally experience this a
> number of times, and I have read similar reports. Actually Louis Jouvet,
> the discoverer of the REM dreams, has studied that phenomenon, in the case
> of people relating simultaneous unrelated dreams, and he attributed this to
> the disfunctionning of the corpus callosum during the dream phase. It makes
> momentarily the two hemisphere independent. It looks like we can integrate
> different identities in different past. The result is a bit troubling ...
> unless we are already aware of the relative nature of personal identity.
> This happens also when using dissociative drugs.
> Of course, if Telmo wakes up with the memory of a cat experience, he will
> only access of the memory of cat + Telmo, which might biase the original
> experience of the cat,
>

That's exactly all I'm saying.


> but not necessarily so much for a short period of time. This makes
> possible to conceive "waking up" and memorizing more than one past threads.
>

I have no problem with this, but I'm proposing that for you to have the 1p
experience of another entity, the only solution is to become the other
entity. If a merged 1p of the two entities is achieved, a new entity with a
new 1p is, in fact, created.


> If the many past threads are equivalently realist and coherent, it leads
> to a direct understanding of the relative nature of identity, and the
> possibility of sharing initial consciousness of ... who? I let you ponder
> on this.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Quentin
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Quentin
>>>
>>>
>>>>  For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about climbing a
>>>> tree, I would have to access my human representation of a tree to connect
>>>> the memories to it, but accessing my human representation of a tree would
>>>> spoil my cat experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Quentin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and
>>>>>>> that a cat's consciousness differs in both respects.  There's 
>>>>>>> consciousness
>>>>>>> of being an individual and of being located in 3-space and in time.  You
>>>>>>> and the cat have both of those (whereas a Mars rover only has the 
>>>>>>> latter).
>>>>>>> But there's language and narrative memory that you have and the cat
>>>>>>> doesn't.  There's reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about
>>>>>>> myself and where I fit in the world".  The cat probably doesn't have 
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> because it's not social - but a dog might.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it just
>>>>>> the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in different
>>>>>> contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into a cat seems to
>>>>>> indicate that ultimately you believe that consciousness is all the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
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