On 2/9/2013 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:29:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

    On 2/9/2013 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
    > Evolution would have no need for generating values, since values are a 
subjective
    > motivation.

    "Subjective motivation" is just a quantitative value seen from the inside.


Why would quantitative values have an inside though? The only reason that we might presume that is because we are looking at it retrospectively. If you turn it around though, and assume quantitative mechanisms can exist without awareness, then there is no possibility of any interior experience being generated. How and why would such a thing arise?


    > All evolution would have to do is simply impose a script that assigns a 
high
    priority to
    > protecting ones own children and ones own life.

    And that's what happened and that's what you feel as love of life and love 
of children.


I understand why that makes sense to you, but you are making that up by taking the undeniable existence of love and drawing a straight line to what you presume, unquestionably, to be the cause. It's an unfalsifiable misconception which begs the question. Lets say you wanted to make a computer program that did not feel anything, but just reproduced and survived. Are you suggesting that is impossible?

Yes. Just like a philosophical zombie is impossible because intelligence entails consciousness, goals and purposes (like survival) plus intelligence entails values and emotions.

Are you saying that whenever a sufficiently complex machine is programmed to avoid specific conditions that avoidance conjures an experience of pain out of nowhere?

Pain and pleasure.



    > Like any computer program, a quantitative equivalence which is 
unsentimental and
    > unconscious would always be more effective.

    Unsentimental, maybe.  But not unemotional.  For example, rage is very 
useful in
    defense
    of one's children.


No it isn't. You are only looking at it retrospectively. The effectiveness of rage is not in the experience of rage, it is in the boost of strength, endurance, aggressive behavior, etc. All of that could be engineered without inventing some kind of ridiculous 'emotional state' as a theatrical presentation.

That's what you say. But what do you think is an emotional state except the boost in adrenaline, the focus on objective, etc? You are simply imagining the two can be separated because you have different words and viewpoints to describe them.

Look at it prospectively instead. You are trying to make an effective replicator. Why would you ever need to do anything but optimize its behaviors?

You wouldn't, but that would entail it having values and emotions.

Brent

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