On 09 Feb 2013, at 22:07, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Saturday, February 9, 2013 3:32:52 PM UTC-5, Simon Forman wrote:
But then doesn't that leave subjectivity fundamentally mysterious?

I think that human subjectivity is a range of qualities of experience, some rooted in the sub-personal, some in the super- personal, and some reflected from the impersonal ranges. From this island of possible personal sensitivities, the influences arising from beneath, behind, or beyond us does seem mysterious, but from an absolute perspective, the only thing mysterious is why we should assume that it is not fundamental.


Because we want to explain it from something simpler. That's what make comp interesting, it allows at least the search (and then computer science illustrates that it works indeed).

Bruno




If form/geometry is first and math second (which fits my own
understanding at this time) the what is it that is apprehending math?
And does it have form?

I wouldn't say that one is first or second to the other, only that there is no path from one to the other without the commonality of the third - which is personal sense. What it is that apprehends math and form is, by triangulation, the common opposite of both. Not formless nor irrational, but trans-rational and form-seeking. I throw around pretentious terms like Trans-Rational algebras, or apocatastatic gestalts, but what I mean is that we see whole images in spite of the disjunct pixels which are presumed to compose them. We jump to conclusions and bridge cognitive gaps, we anticipate teleologically rather than only passively react.

Craig

~Simon

On 2/9/13, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, February 9, 2013 1:31:55 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013  Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com
>> <javascript:>>wrote:
>>
>> > If geometry did not exist. Could you invent it with mathematics alone?
>>>
>>
>> Mathematicians have invented geometries of 5, 6, 7, or even a infinite >> number of dimensions as in Hilbert space even though they have no tactile
>>
>> experience of such things.
>>
>
> I missed it at first, but actually your example makes my point exactly. If > the universe were primitively arithmetic, it also would not require any
> tactile experience to support its computations in 1, 2, 3, or four
> dimensions.
>
> This is a great topic for me because even people with very Western
> orientations should be able to see that sensory distinctions are more > primitive than mathematical universalities this way, without getting into > any deep philosophical discussions about subjectivity. The simple and > unavoidable truth is: Geometry is mathematically impossible. Mathematics > has no power to generate points in space, or lines, shapes, volumes, etc.
>
> These forms are not mathematical, they are sensory experiences, and
> experiences of the visual-tangible channels of public awareness at that. > You can't get a body out of math, unless you are already expecting a body > to be possible, and you have real bodies to use to project simulated bodies
>
> onto.
>
> Craig
>
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--
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http://www.dendritenetwork.com/

"The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather like that of an imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while the prison that restrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking but incorporating the crackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruous dreams, than like that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity." -- H. P.
Wells, "A Short History of the World"

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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